Franklin,
Do you speak for yourself/your company or on the behalf of all PCB
manufacturers throughout the world. I haven't gotten on this thread, but you
sure went on a tirade and I thought I'd jump in and say that I've dealt with
not too helpful board houses, too. Also, I didn't jump in to protect Earl.
Lord knows he can take care of himself.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Franklin [SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:47 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
>
> Earl,
>
> Perhaps you would look at this in a different perspective. Network
> Circuits is also in the business of making
> a profit (God forbid). Have we always made a profit on orders? Nope, not
> always. Well why not? Well, because
> often we are working with the customer to help them prove out an idea, to
> develop a new technology or design,
> assist them in improvements to an existing design to improve both theirs
> and our efficiency, and the list goes
> on and on and on. So we lose our ass some times. Well then why the heck do
> we continue to do this? Hmmm,
> could be because we consider ourselves partners with our customers. We
> realize that when they win, we also
> win. Could be because we realize the importance of moving towards the
> future created or suggested by our
> customer, they realize where their money will be coming from, and us, as
> their partner in this, are here to
> make this as easy as possible. Together, together, together we learn new
> processes, technology is shared
> between us, we learn and grow in a mutual relationship that may not only
> benefit the two companies but I
> am reasonably sure that these type relationships may have resulted in many
> of the technological changes
> all of us have witnessed in the past. Yes we may have lost money at times,
> but what we learned through
> this has allowed at least this one board shop to grow.
>
> Of course this is just the opinion of a Quality Assurance Manager of a PCB
> fabricator, so accept this as you
> see fit.
>
> Franklin
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pod < [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> < [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Date: 04 October, 1999 6:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
>
>
> Joe,
>
> There are some outstanding examples of your type. Tyco, and 10% or the
> others, have done an admirable job, though not keeping ahead of demand.
>
> After some years in the business, on many sides of the fence (how many can
> there be - you'd be suprised) very few innovations or technological
> changes
> come from fabricators. That's the shame.
>
> We are currently pushing, not being pulled by, 3000 I/O's on selected
> BGA/CGA types on .8 mm. We've been pushing the envelope for years asking,
> not pleading and begging, shops to get with the program. However, as long
> as
> there is reasonable profit, few followed - let alone led. As an example, I
> once worked with a premier board shop. The motto on the door, upon entry,
> was we are a profit making organization. We'll do anything for your money
> and we did - some of the time.
>
> Earl Moon
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Joe Dickson < [log in to unmask]
> <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> To: < [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>>
> Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 6:42 PM
> Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
>
>
> > To all I politely disagree,
> >
> > I have been to no less than six IPC sponsored seminars
> > specifically gear to the future trends in the IC industry.
> > We now have a presentation that doesn't focus on manufacturing
> > anymore, but how to use manufacturing techniques for routing
> > advances. We are currently working on a 2000 plus I/O BGA at .8 mm
> > pitch. I'm sure there are other board shops working with
> > customers with even higher routing needs. I'm surprised someone
> > directly from IPC hasn't responded to this e-mail. This has been one
> > of the most popular issues that I've attended in the last two years.
> > Our seminars for routing techniques has become the best
> > attended seminar we sponsor. Even over the PCB manufacturing
> > guidelines.
> >
> > Just a thought,
> > Joe Dickson
> > Dir. of Engineering
> > Tyco Printed Circuit Division
> > Santa Clara, Calif.
> >
> >
> >
> > > Paul: Here's my two cents worth-
> > >
> > > It gets worse if you think that the PCB manufacturers aren't talking
> to
> > > their customer base. They definitely do not talk to the component
> > > manufacturers. Over the past 24 months, I have had the unusual
> happenstance
> > > to visit virtually every IC assembly facility in Asia, as well as many
> in
> > > Europe. These include both captive houses, as well as foundry
> services.
> > >
> > > In only one case (IBM) did I find that any PCB manufacturer had ever
> > > inquired as to where the IC interconnect industry was headed, either
> > > strategically or short term. How can one industry understand what its
> future
> > > requirements will be if they do not understand where their greatest
> > > challenges are coming from.
> > >
> > > The art of copper placement on FR4 is not new; great strides have been
> made
> > > to create finer and finer line widths at greater and greater planar
> > > densities. However, these are mere drops in the bucket when you
> consider
> the
> > > available of 50um wire bonding at 10um pitches. The IC industry can do
> this
> > > today if it only had a FR4 substrate capable of accepting it.
> > >
> > > As a end user of the PCB industry, it seems the only time we get to
> talk
> to
> > > our PCB suppliers is when there is trouble- either in product
> performance
> > > (quality, line yields, etc.), pricing or delivery.
> > >
> > > Best regards,
> > > Bill Davis, Ph.D.
> > > Sr. Scientist
> > > (408) 325-7868
> > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Paul Brown [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:39 PM
> > > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > Subject: [TN] PCB Manufacturers
> > >
> > >
> > > Well
> > >
> > > So far we have managed to obtain about 5 replies from PCB
> manufacturers
> out
> > > of how may thousands worldwide
> > >
> > > Can anyone suggest a way of getting them involved ?
> > >
> > > Surely its about time that the people that use PCB,s( PWB,s) started
> talking
> > > to the people that make them!
> > >
> > > I used to be a specialty chemical supplier to the PCB industry in the
> UK
> and
> > > realized a long time ago that users of pcbs don't talk to the
> manufacturers,
> > > they send them a design and that's it
> > > The problem is users don't often understand the processes involved in
> > > manufacture
> > >
> > > Any comments
> > >
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