Franklin, Do you speak for yourself/your company or on the behalf of all PCB manufacturers throughout the world. I haven't gotten on this thread, but you sure went on a tirade and I thought I'd jump in and say that I've dealt with not too helpful board houses, too. Also, I didn't jump in to protect Earl. Lord knows he can take care of himself. > -----Original Message----- > From: Franklin [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:47 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers > > Earl, > > Perhaps you would look at this in a different perspective. Network > Circuits is also in the business of making > a profit (God forbid). Have we always made a profit on orders? Nope, not > always. Well why not? Well, because > often we are working with the customer to help them prove out an idea, to > develop a new technology or design, > assist them in improvements to an existing design to improve both theirs > and our efficiency, and the list goes > on and on and on. So we lose our ass some times. Well then why the heck do > we continue to do this? Hmmm, > could be because we consider ourselves partners with our customers. We > realize that when they win, we also > win. Could be because we realize the importance of moving towards the > future created or suggested by our > customer, they realize where their money will be coming from, and us, as > their partner in this, are here to > make this as easy as possible. Together, together, together we learn new > processes, technology is shared > between us, we learn and grow in a mutual relationship that may not only > benefit the two companies but I > am reasonably sure that these type relationships may have resulted in many > of the technological changes > all of us have witnessed in the past. Yes we may have lost money at times, > but what we learned through > this has allowed at least this one board shop to grow. > > Of course this is just the opinion of a Quality Assurance Manager of a PCB > fabricator, so accept this as you > see fit. > > Franklin > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: pod < [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> < [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Date: 04 October, 1999 6:07 PM > Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers > > > Joe, > > There are some outstanding examples of your type. Tyco, and 10% or the > others, have done an admirable job, though not keeping ahead of demand. > > After some years in the business, on many sides of the fence (how many can > there be - you'd be suprised) very few innovations or technological > changes > come from fabricators. That's the shame. > > We are currently pushing, not being pulled by, 3000 I/O's on selected > BGA/CGA types on .8 mm. We've been pushing the envelope for years asking, > not pleading and begging, shops to get with the program. However, as long > as > there is reasonable profit, few followed - let alone led. As an example, I > once worked with a premier board shop. The motto on the door, upon entry, > was we are a profit making organization. We'll do anything for your money > and we did - some of the time. > > Earl Moon > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Joe Dickson < [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > To: < [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]>> > Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 6:42 PM > Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers > > > > To all I politely disagree, > > > > I have been to no less than six IPC sponsored seminars > > specifically gear to the future trends in the IC industry. > > We now have a presentation that doesn't focus on manufacturing > > anymore, but how to use manufacturing techniques for routing > > advances. We are currently working on a 2000 plus I/O BGA at .8 mm > > pitch. I'm sure there are other board shops working with > > customers with even higher routing needs. I'm surprised someone > > directly from IPC hasn't responded to this e-mail. This has been one > > of the most popular issues that I've attended in the last two years. > > Our seminars for routing techniques has become the best > > attended seminar we sponsor. Even over the PCB manufacturing > > guidelines. > > > > Just a thought, > > Joe Dickson > > Dir. of Engineering > > Tyco Printed Circuit Division > > Santa Clara, Calif. > > > > > > > > > Paul: Here's my two cents worth- > > > > > > It gets worse if you think that the PCB manufacturers aren't talking > to > > > their customer base. They definitely do not talk to the component > > > manufacturers. Over the past 24 months, I have had the unusual > happenstance > > > to visit virtually every IC assembly facility in Asia, as well as many > in > > > Europe. These include both captive houses, as well as foundry > services. > > > > > > In only one case (IBM) did I find that any PCB manufacturer had ever > > > inquired as to where the IC interconnect industry was headed, either > > > strategically or short term. How can one industry understand what its > future > > > requirements will be if they do not understand where their greatest > > > challenges are coming from. > > > > > > The art of copper placement on FR4 is not new; great strides have been > made > > > to create finer and finer line widths at greater and greater planar > > > densities. However, these are mere drops in the bucket when you > consider > the > > > available of 50um wire bonding at 10um pitches. The IC industry can do > this > > > today if it only had a FR4 substrate capable of accepting it. > > > > > > As a end user of the PCB industry, it seems the only time we get to > talk > to > > > our PCB suppliers is when there is trouble- either in product > performance > > > (quality, line yields, etc.), pricing or delivery. > > > > > > Best regards, > > > Bill Davis, Ph.D. > > > Sr. Scientist > > > (408) 325-7868 > > > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Paul Brown [ <mailto:[log in to unmask]>] > > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:39 PM > > > To: [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > Subject: [TN] PCB Manufacturers > > > > > > > > > Well > > > > > > So far we have managed to obtain about 5 replies from PCB > manufacturers > out > > > of how may thousands worldwide > > > > > > Can anyone suggest a way of getting them involved ? > > > > > > Surely its about time that the people that use PCB,s( PWB,s) started > talking > > > to the people that make them! > > > > > > I used to be a specialty chemical supplier to the PCB industry in the > UK > and > > > realized a long time ago that users of pcbs don't talk to the > manufacturers, > > > they send them a design and that's it > > > The problem is users don't often understand the processes involved in > > > manufacture > > > > > > Any comments > > > > > > ############################################################## > > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV > 1.8c > > > ############################################################## > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> with > following > > > text in > > > the body: > > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > > ############################################################## > > > Please visit IPC web site ( <http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm>) for > additional > > > information. > > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > or > > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > > ############################################################## > > > > > > ############################################################## > > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV > 1.8c > > > ############################################################## > > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> with > following text in > > > the body: > > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > > ############################################################## > > > Please visit IPC web site ( <http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm>) for > additional > > > information. > > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at > [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > or > > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > > ############################################################## > > > > > > > ############################################################## > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > > ############################################################## > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> with > following text in > > the body: > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > ############################################################## > > Please visit IPC web site ( <http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm>) for > additional > > information. > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> or > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > ############################################################## > > ############################################################## > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > ############################################################## > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> with following text in > the body: > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > ############################################################## > Please visit IPC web site ( <http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm>) for > additional > information. > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at [log in to unmask] > <mailto:[log in to unmask]> or > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > ############################################################## > ############################################################## TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c ############################################################## To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET ############################################################## Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information. 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