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Subject:	Re: Gloved Hands / Fingerprints / Failure Articles
From:	Joe Fjelstad <[log in to unmask]>
Reply To:	TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask]
Date:	Wed, 4 Mar 2009 11:20:40 EST
Content-Type:	text/plain
Parts/Attachments:	text/plain (346 lines)
Hmmm Sounds like things are heating up as the gloves come off... 
 
Joe
 
 
In a message dated 3/4/2009 8:12:23 A.M. Pacific Standard Time,  
[log in to unmask] writes:

Hey  Doug, cut Dewey some slack - it was just an off-hand remark.   

Seriously though, I think your suggestion of commentary on the  topic
being added to the IPC handbook is great.  That's a "yes" vote.  


regards,
- Graham

-----Original Message-----
From:  TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls
Sent:  Wednesday, March 04, 2009 11:41 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN]  Gloved Hands / Fingerprints / Failure Articles

An excellent point  Leland.  I have also found that the finger cots or
ESD plastic gloves  often swell in response to common processing
chemicals. 
They don't  dissolve, but grow a hand size or two. 

And shame on Dewey for palming  off his comments.

Doug Pauls
Rockwell Collins



"Leland  Woodall" <[log in to unmask]>
03/04/2009 09:37  AM

To
"TechNet E-Mail Forum" <[log in to unmask]>,  <[log in to unmask]>
cc

Subject
RE: [TN] Gloved  Hands / Fingerprints / Failure Articles






Definitely  so, Doug.

May want to keep in mind that conductive fibers in ESD gloves  can, and
do, cause intermittent electrical shorting.  I've been down  that road,
and that's why we use only those made of cotton with neoprene  palms in
our facility.

Leland

-----Original  Message-----
From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas  Pauls
Sent: Wednesday, March 04, 2009 10:30 AM
To:  [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Gloved Hands / Fingerprints / Failure  Articles

Thank you all.  Much appreciated.

Would you all  find benefit of a discussion of gloves in manufacturing in

the revision  efforts for the IPC Cleaning Handbooks, currenly underway?

Doug  Pauls
Rockwell Collins



"Roberts, Jon"  <[log in to unmask]>
Sent by: TechNet  <[log in to unmask]>
03/04/2009 09:14 AM
Please respond to
TechNet  E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to "Roberts,  Jon"
<[log in to unmask]>


To
[log in to unmask]
cc

Subject
Re:  [TN] Gloved Hands / Fingerprints / Failure  Articles






Doug's 2 cents are worth more than most of  can afford.  I did enjoy
learning a new word (recalcitrant)from Mike  Fenner.  Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: TechNet  [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls
Sent: Wednesday, March  04, 2009 8:44 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Gloved Hands /  Fingerprints / Failure Articles

Kevin,
I will throw in my two cents  worth.  We do not wear gloves in our 
facilities for most of the  manufacturing process.  They do in the clean 
rooms and they do after  final wash prior to conformal coat.  The rest of

the time it is,  in my opinion, a waste of time and money.  Kind of an
odd  
statement coming from me, but here is why I think so.

Gloves are  there to prevent finger salts and oils from getting on the 
assembly, where  they would be a contamination risk.  Our cleaning 
processes are such  that the last cleaning step is a mild one designed to

remove such salts  and oils.  The heavier residues have already been 
removed in previous  process steps.  So, gloves are not really needed.

Here is why I  think it is a waste of money to have gloves on anywhere 
earlier in the  process.  The assumption that gloves keep your assemblies

clean is  only true while the gloves themselves are clean.  Run your
gloved  
hands through your hair.  New gloves.  Touch a little of that  uncured 
adhesive.  New gloves.  Get a little flux from hand  soldering on the 
gloves.  New gloves.  You think that the  operators are going to change 
gloves that often?  No.  Think the  manager for that area is going to 
willingly pay for the truckloads of new  gloves.  Hell no.  In some of
our 
areas, the operators that  apply silicone RTV adhesive to the boards wear

gloves because that RTV  is hard to get off your hands.  Think they
change 
them  often?  Nope.  When the boards get to conformal coating, there are  
lots of dewet areas that mysteriously resemble fingerprint sized areas,  
but without the convenient identifying fingerprints.  Even though we  
stress to our operators to handle boards by the edges only, it is  
sometimes just not practical to do so.  Then again, since we have  that 
final clean prior to coating, it is not as critical.

Now, if  you are a true no-clean facility, that is another issue.  If  you

go the route of gloves, I would recommend you stay away from finger  cots

and plastic gloves.  They are uncomfortable and when you make  the 
operators uncomfortable, bad things happen.  I would highly  recommend
the 
use of HyFlex gloves, which you can get from  Techni-Tool.  These are 
cotton gloves with heavier rubberized palms  and fingers, but the back 
sides of the fingers and back side of the hand  are open cotton, allowing

the gloves to breathe. Very comfortable, good  tactical feel to them and 
the surface is robust enough that you can clean  off residues with mild 
alcohol so they last for a long time.  They  cost a little more, but they

are worth the investment considering their  cleanability and how long
they 
last.

Doug Pauls
Rockwell  Collins



Kevin Glidden <[log in to unmask]>  
Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]>
03/04/2009 07:26 AM
Please  respond to
TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond  to
Kevin Glidden  <[log in to unmask]>


To
[log in to unmask]
cc

Subject
[TN]  Gloved Hands / Fingerprints / Failure  Articles






Hello everyone,

We are in the midst  of a proposal from myself and manufacturing 
engineering
to require use  of gloves or finger cots throughout our PCB assembly 
process.
We had  considered that it really would only be required after final
cleaning, but  for uniformity would require it all steps including
population.  We  have of course met with a real resistance, particularly 
from
the final  assemblers who are stating it doesn't matter once the
conformal
coat is  on.  I can see at least some logic in that, and admittedly  a
large
portion of our argument is aesthetics (we don't want  fingerprints on the
boards even after coating), but it would be really nice  to have some
sort 
of
scare tactic, like an article or something that  related a PCB failure to
fingerprints or handling contamination.   Anyone have such a  thing?

Thanks!

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