When you take the top-mgmt compensation and prop it up against the overall
costs (many specified below), it just won't compare. As much as I'd like to
believe that it could, I seriously doubt that by reducing - even completely
eliminating - top management compensation will put any kind of significant
dent in the cost of the standards, forget about 'slashing' the price to make
them much more affordable.
Programming, website management, graphics design, meeting planning,
production, training, accounting, and customer support all sum up to much
more than what top management makes, and this is only staff compensation.
Then factor in the other operational costs.
Our capitalistic society will find a way of doing things cheaper. If someone
in the electronics industry knew that they can earn a decent living
creating, producing, promoting, selling, and updating reliable and ANSI
approved standards of the same caliber as IPC's ****at cheaper cost****, I'm
inclined to believe they would have done it already, especially during the
industry's poor employment conditions of the past few years.
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Brooks,Bill
Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:03 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
Things are okay in San Diego Nick...
Good to hear from you. We miss ya in the DC.
Actually business has been picking up in the last few months...
I appreciate your insights into the workings of the IPC too, and know that
the folks that attend the meetings to help formulate the specs often times
have to pay money to attend the meetings. This is obviously a way to cover
the costs of putting on the conventions to get folks together to make things
happen and we as an industry benefit from the efforts put forth by
contributors to the effort. I understand the costs... I did some publishing
before too... and I know there are mass producers out there that can make
CD's for a buck or two each... so there's more to that story...
I think the Designers have a little different view of the IPC than the rest
of the industry does... While we are thankful that they are working to bring
standardization to the industry and help communicate the needs of the
industry to the designers who make the designs that they have to fabricate
and assemble for a living, we can in no way afford to fund their operation
on our measly paychecks... The folks running the IPC are CEO's... they make
hundreds of thousands of dollars a year... and they can fund activities with
their company credit cards... we do not make that kind of cash nor can we
budget much beyond the funding of a trip to a convention on occasion.
We are not accustomed to getting our books paid for by the company, and we
are totally jazzed if the company pops for a software tool we need or
upgrade to our computers so we can design more boards.
We are a different 'market'... and I think they still have a hard time
grasping that. But we will keep trying to communicate it.
The DC is not in the business of making big bucks... it's in the business of
helping designers make good designs that helps the Manufacturers and
Assembly houses make money. We are enablers... once they see that investment
strategy clearly...I think they will see the need to make the materials
available at much lower cost to designers and with less restrictions.
Just a viewpoint... but I think its worth mulling over.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
e-mail:[log in to unmask]
http://www.dtwc.com
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Nick Ban (PCBL) [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 7:53 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
Hi, Bill. Remember me? I hope all is well in San Diego. :-)
I think many people underestimate the effort and cost involved with creating
standards. Getting the standards printed or burned on CD takes much more
than a printing machine, a CD burner and volunteers.
Please don't misunderstand, I do NOT intend to play down the high value of
volunteers, rather point out costs that some probably probably don't
realize. While many volunteers set aside much time and money for no
financial compensation, I am inclined to think they do benefit at least
somewhat from the exposure they get (ie awards/recognition, name/company on
acknowledgement page of standard, etc), and perhaps even connections they
may make along the way.
While the volunteers develop the standards (and yes, pay for their own
travel), it is almost always true that as standard is developed, most if not
all of its volunteers rightly focus on their paying job instead (ie. the
standard is not their top priority and never will be). IPC's involvement to
manage the volunteers as well as promote the standard has costs that many
seem underestimate or overlook:
- Meeting costs: hotel mtg rooms, teleconferences, etc
- Marketing/promotion of standards
>> Is it really a standard if nobody's using it?
- Salary for staff liaisons
>> I'd like to see an effective volunteer at this
- Travel for staff liaisons
- Operating expenses (rent & bills)
- IT & other support staff at head office
- CD Burners and Printers
>> I had to put this one in! ;-)
While the volunteers' sacrifices are -HIGHLY- commendable, I have to ask -
who would fund the above expenses? Who would provide capital for new
standards and roadmaps? I don't think the volunteers would - even if they
could. And I somehow don't think charging nominal prices on the standards
would help, either, the money would have to be made back somehow. Anyways,
that's my two cents on this, I only worked there for just about five years.
:-)
Nick Ban
PCB Libraries, Inc.
-----Original Message-----
From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of
Brooks,Bill
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:14 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
Thanks Pete,
Now see. That makes too much sense... If you buy the print version of the
data, it should be more expensive just because the printing process costs
more... And if you buy the CD or electronic version it should be less
expensive because of the lower cost to reproduce...
The digital method should be preferred and easy to procure... and use.
Printing the specs for your own use should always be possible and without
extra charge. The bottom line with these specs is "WE WANT PEOPLE TO USE
THEM!!!" so enable them... make it possible for the widest audience. They
way over charge for these specs in my opinion... If I was running the show
I would drop the prices and let folks download the specs for a nominal fee.
It really would be a much better policy. After all they were created by
volunteers in the membership for use in the industry... we need to get them
into the hands of the folks who need them.
(But I won't hold my breath... LOL)
In the mean time I'll buy the ones I can when I have the money... and they
will be the paper versions unless they open the printing features on the
Cd's... When they change, I'll buy the CD's.
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
e-mail:[log in to unmask]
http://www.dtwc.com
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Pete Waddell [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 3:33 PM
To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
While it certainly costs less to do discs I for one can vouceh for the fact
that printing (not to mention postage) cost have - and are still - going up.
TTry to think f it as paying for data, not a book.
I remember stories from the 90s about receiving and accounting folks
wondering how a 10" mag tape could be worth $50K - even if it was stete-
of-the-art CAD code. While I consider myself a print kinda guy, I'm looking
for more and more stuff digital. (Natl Geographic has gotta be print. I also
do not do "books on tape - I like hardbacks - it's a preference for which I
pay extra)
Now, the issue with things like standards is the format for you printing and
the issue of reuse or licensing. The digital method of getting it from the
agency only makes sense, unless ya wanna pay EXTRA for print.
p.
Pete Waddell
President
UP Media Group
678-589-8813
[log in to unmask]
>>> [log in to unmask] 03/17/05 16:56 PM >>>
Good points Jack...
However, almost every time I have had to look something up, I have been
somewhere away from the computer... Books do not require batteries or an
electrical outlet to read them... and I can Xerox a page if need be...
I wanted to be able to do both, and if the print function was setup to let
you print the book so you could end up with both it might be worth buying
the CD... but as it was, I was much happier with the paper version for my
needs. At least I can carry it with me to the local restaurant and read
while I eat lunch if I need to.
:)
CD's are much cheaper to reproduce than paper books and should be cheaper to
buy if you ask me... but it's hard to fight city hall... something special
about it being electronic makes it cost more... go figure.
Best regards,
Bill Brooks - KG6VVP
PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I.
Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510
e-mail:[log in to unmask]
http://www.dtwc.com
http://pcbwizards.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:19 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
on the other side of the coin....
I love having computer versions.
paper sucks.
I can make a bazillion copies, and
why do I need to print them anyway?
I just need the data when I need it.
As a matter of fact, they include a
utility to print a single page at a time
if you really need to show a print to
someone. I never used it, because if
I ever need to show anything I
just use snagit (or any other decent
screen capture utility) to print it.
paper is temporary, data is forever.
just another opinion...
Jack
p.s. I would recommend IPC-2221, 2222
and the land pattern standard. That will
keep you busy enough for awhile.
Here's a free copy of the next 2221, go here
and click the "drafts" link:
http://www.ipc.org/committeedetail.asp?Committee=D-31b
Get it quick, they don't stay there forever...
Bryan Randall
<accutrace@VERIZO
N.NET>
Sent by: To
DesignerCouncil To
<DesignerCouncil@ [log in to unmask]
ipc.org> cc
03/17/2005 01:45
PM
Subject
Please respond to Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications
accutrace@verizon
.net
Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 04/16/2005
Retention Category: G90 -
General
Matters/Administration
Bill,
Thanks for your help! I will proceed with paper copies as you recommended.
Bryan
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