When you take the top-mgmt compensation and prop it up against the overall costs (many specified below), it just won't compare. As much as I'd like to believe that it could, I seriously doubt that by reducing - even completely eliminating - top management compensation will put any kind of significant dent in the cost of the standards, forget about 'slashing' the price to make them much more affordable. Programming, website management, graphics design, meeting planning, production, training, accounting, and customer support all sum up to much more than what top management makes, and this is only staff compensation. Then factor in the other operational costs. Our capitalistic society will find a way of doing things cheaper. If someone in the electronics industry knew that they can earn a decent living creating, producing, promoting, selling, and updating reliable and ANSI approved standards of the same caliber as IPC's ****at cheaper cost****, I'm inclined to believe they would have done it already, especially during the industry's poor employment conditions of the past few years. Nick -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 11:03 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications Things are okay in San Diego Nick... Good to hear from you. We miss ya in the DC. Actually business has been picking up in the last few months... I appreciate your insights into the workings of the IPC too, and know that the folks that attend the meetings to help formulate the specs often times have to pay money to attend the meetings. This is obviously a way to cover the costs of putting on the conventions to get folks together to make things happen and we as an industry benefit from the efforts put forth by contributors to the effort. I understand the costs... I did some publishing before too... and I know there are mass producers out there that can make CD's for a buck or two each... so there's more to that story... I think the Designers have a little different view of the IPC than the rest of the industry does... While we are thankful that they are working to bring standardization to the industry and help communicate the needs of the industry to the designers who make the designs that they have to fabricate and assemble for a living, we can in no way afford to fund their operation on our measly paychecks... The folks running the IPC are CEO's... they make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year... and they can fund activities with their company credit cards... we do not make that kind of cash nor can we budget much beyond the funding of a trip to a convention on occasion. We are not accustomed to getting our books paid for by the company, and we are totally jazzed if the company pops for a software tool we need or upgrade to our computers so we can design more boards. We are a different 'market'... and I think they still have a hard time grasping that. But we will keep trying to communicate it. The DC is not in the business of making big bucks... it's in the business of helping designers make good designs that helps the Manufacturers and Assembly houses make money. We are enablers... once they see that investment strategy clearly...I think they will see the need to make the materials available at much lower cost to designers and with less restrictions. Just a viewpoint... but I think its worth mulling over. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Nick Ban (PCBL) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 7:53 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications Hi, Bill. Remember me? I hope all is well in San Diego. :-) I think many people underestimate the effort and cost involved with creating standards. Getting the standards printed or burned on CD takes much more than a printing machine, a CD burner and volunteers. Please don't misunderstand, I do NOT intend to play down the high value of volunteers, rather point out costs that some probably probably don't realize. While many volunteers set aside much time and money for no financial compensation, I am inclined to think they do benefit at least somewhat from the exposure they get (ie awards/recognition, name/company on acknowledgement page of standard, etc), and perhaps even connections they may make along the way. While the volunteers develop the standards (and yes, pay for their own travel), it is almost always true that as standard is developed, most if not all of its volunteers rightly focus on their paying job instead (ie. the standard is not their top priority and never will be). IPC's involvement to manage the volunteers as well as promote the standard has costs that many seem underestimate or overlook: - Meeting costs: hotel mtg rooms, teleconferences, etc - Marketing/promotion of standards >> Is it really a standard if nobody's using it? - Salary for staff liaisons >> I'd like to see an effective volunteer at this - Travel for staff liaisons - Operating expenses (rent & bills) - IT & other support staff at head office - CD Burners and Printers >> I had to put this one in! ;-) While the volunteers' sacrifices are -HIGHLY- commendable, I have to ask - who would fund the above expenses? Who would provide capital for new standards and roadmaps? I don't think the volunteers would - even if they could. And I somehow don't think charging nominal prices on the standards would help, either, the money would have to be made back somehow. Anyways, that's my two cents on this, I only worked there for just about five years. :-) Nick Ban PCB Libraries, Inc. -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 6:14 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications Thanks Pete, Now see. That makes too much sense... If you buy the print version of the data, it should be more expensive just because the printing process costs more... And if you buy the CD or electronic version it should be less expensive because of the lower cost to reproduce... The digital method should be preferred and easy to procure... and use. Printing the specs for your own use should always be possible and without extra charge. The bottom line with these specs is "WE WANT PEOPLE TO USE THEM!!!" so enable them... make it possible for the widest audience. They way over charge for these specs in my opinion... If I was running the show I would drop the prices and let folks download the specs for a nominal fee. It really would be a much better policy. After all they were created by volunteers in the membership for use in the industry... we need to get them into the hands of the folks who need them. (But I won't hold my breath... LOL) In the mean time I'll buy the ones I can when I have the money... and they will be the paper versions unless they open the printing features on the Cd's... When they change, I'll buy the CD's. Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Pete Waddell [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 3:33 PM To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications While it certainly costs less to do discs I for one can vouceh for the fact that printing (not to mention postage) cost have - and are still - going up. TTry to think f it as paying for data, not a book. I remember stories from the 90s about receiving and accounting folks wondering how a 10" mag tape could be worth $50K - even if it was stete- of-the-art CAD code. While I consider myself a print kinda guy, I'm looking for more and more stuff digital. (Natl Geographic has gotta be print. I also do not do "books on tape - I like hardbacks - it's a preference for which I pay extra) Now, the issue with things like standards is the format for you printing and the issue of reuse or licensing. The digital method of getting it from the agency only makes sense, unless ya wanna pay EXTRA for print. p. Pete Waddell President UP Media Group 678-589-8813 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 03/17/05 16:56 PM >>> Good points Jack... However, almost every time I have had to look something up, I have been somewhere away from the computer... Books do not require batteries or an electrical outlet to read them... and I can Xerox a page if need be... I wanted to be able to do both, and if the print function was setup to let you print the book so you could end up with both it might be worth buying the CD... but as it was, I was much happier with the paper version for my needs. At least I can carry it with me to the local restaurant and read while I eat lunch if I need to. :) CD's are much cheaper to reproduce than paper books and should be cheaper to buy if you ask me... but it's hard to fight city hall... something special about it being electronic makes it cost more... go figure. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications on the other side of the coin.... I love having computer versions. paper sucks. I can make a bazillion copies, and why do I need to print them anyway? I just need the data when I need it. As a matter of fact, they include a utility to print a single page at a time if you really need to show a print to someone. I never used it, because if I ever need to show anything I just use snagit (or any other decent screen capture utility) to print it. paper is temporary, data is forever. just another opinion... Jack p.s. I would recommend IPC-2221, 2222 and the land pattern standard. That will keep you busy enough for awhile. Here's a free copy of the next 2221, go here and click the "drafts" link: http://www.ipc.org/committeedetail.asp?Committee=D-31b Get it quick, they don't stay there forever... Bryan Randall <accutrace@VERIZO N.NET> Sent by: To DesignerCouncil To <DesignerCouncil@ [log in to unmask] ipc.org> cc 03/17/2005 01:45 PM Subject Please respond to Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications accutrace@verizon .net Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 04/16/2005 Retention Category: G90 - General Matters/Administration Bill, Thanks for your help! I will proceed with paper copies as you recommended. Bryan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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