You've said it all Chris. That is you've said just about all that can be
said about how not to do it right using DFM through CE.

Yes it is an unfortunate situation but there really are ways to do so much
better - if management will listen and look at DFM/CE instead of the bottom
line. Of course, the bottom line will look a whole lot better if they
understand and embrace a concept that's been proven over and over for so
many years it almost hurts to think about it. And, as Pete and so many
others have said, it almost hurts to be having this conversation this late
in the game.

It is insane so much so that it approximates hell and hell is the
impossibility of reason.

MoonMan
----- Original Message -----
From: <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [DC] Fw: [DC] questions please


> Hi Pete/Moonman/All-
> It's the same problem as with most things these days. $'s now beats
> everything. Back in the day, we didn't mind if we were paying a little
more
> to work with the people we worked with. We knew them, they knew us.
Because
> they knew us, they saved our bacon from time to time. Because we knew
them,
> we could tailor our output to their needs and desires.
>
> (We used to do our own production, but since it wasn't a 'core' business,
> it's been pared away. Somehow, this saved us money - but that's another
sad
> story)
>
> Today I don't know the CEM, boardshop, method of singulation from the
> panel, etc. when I'm done with the design, much less when I'm starting.
The
> CEM's won't invest any time in your project until they've been awarded the
> business, and I don't blame them. We don't award the business until the
> last possible moment if there's a chance of squeezing a fraction of a cent
> out of it by going somewhere else.
>
> So who am I gonna CE with? DFM? You take yer best shot and ask how it
went.
> You try to do everything for the worst cases gleaned from the pool of
> suppliers you are aware of.
>
> For now, I can at least 'CE' with the hardware eng. and the mechanical
> folks. When "I" am in India, Morocco, or Brazil or wherever, the savings
> will be even greater as far as the spreadsheets go, but I expect not
> really....
>
> We have to release drawings to get a quote, so we can't know who wins the
> biz until we've completed at least one iteration.
>
> When we think we've identified enough players to attempt 'CE', as someone
> already stated, oftentimes the people present in the meetings aren't
really
> the people with the right questions or the right answers. Much is lost in
> translation, if translated at all. It's not a pleasant thing to look into
> someone's eyes and see that your inquiries will never reach anyone who
> could give you an answer.
>
> If there are people out there who are able to maintain a working
> relationship with suppliers based on quality and communication rather than
> cost, I'd like to know how you do it. Maybe my environment is more money
> driven than most... I hope so but fear it's not.
>
> One good thing... for our products at least, the boarshops and CEM's
> capabilities seem more and more in line with one another.
>
> Remember... "Insanity is a sane response to an insane environment..."
> -Chris
>
>
>
>
>                        Pete Waddell
>                        <[log in to unmask]        To:
[log in to unmask]
>                        >                                 cc:
>                        Sent by: DesignerCouncil          Subject:    Re:
[DC] Fw: [DC] questions
>                        <[log in to unmask]>           please
>
>                        08/24/2004 01:13 PM
>                        Please respond to
>                        "(Designers Council
>                        Forum)"; Please respond to
>                        Pete Waddell
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I've been watching this forum for the last few days and noting the
> (limited) discussion of DFM. Personally I am quite befuddled ( I searched
> but couldn't come up with a better word). Over 10 years ago PCD started a
> crusade on DFM. We organized discussions with designers and manufacturers,
> printed umpteen gazillion articles in the mag, devoted entire tracks to
the
> subject at the conferences, yadda yadda yadda. It just seemed that people
> really were not concerned. Granted there were and are a core group that
> grasp(ed)  the importance and impact of DFM, but  the great masses seemed
> to take the point of view that they had been sending out data packages and
> getting back boards so everything must be ok. Meantime the shops were
> saying that the easiest and fastest course was to fix what was wrong and
> build the dang thing so they could invoice it.
> Has anything changed? Well, as I said there is that core, but  times are
> tough in a lot of places and I certainly understand that keeping ones head
> down and not make waves may sometimes may seem to be the best means of
> survival in the short term. But the thing I really have trouble with is
> that the manufacturing community and the suppliers to that community keep
> telling us that they want to reach the designers and have a true exchange.
> They have sponsored and organized seminars on the subject, some of them
> free. But in most cases designers are not taking advantage of these
> opportunities. As an example, one person wrote to us to  complain about
our
> exhibitions at the conferences, specifically that there were more board
> fabricators exhibiting than EDA vendors. Think about that a second. Aside
> from the fact that there just aren't that many PCB EDA vendors anymore,
I'd
> say  that it is as important, maybe even more important, that they know
and
> understand their board vendor - their capabilities philosophies etc.
> I'm gonna go now, I get frustrated on the DFM subject. Sorry for the
length
> of the post, but it's been so long since I wrote an editorial I forget
when
> to get out.
> Good luck and hang in there. Trust that someone is listening.
> p.
>
> Pete Waddell
> President
> UP Media Group
> 678-589-8813
> [log in to unmask]
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 08/24/04 12:29PM >>>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "moonman" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 12:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [DC] questions please
>
>
> Jack,
>
>  It really is amazing and very gratifying to see how far we've come.
You're
> sure right about technical people writing for others technical instead of
> trying to sell something.
>
> Concerning the issue about designers improving I can say without a doubt
> the
> biggest one is NOT HAVING THE TIME, as you say. It may not be the
> designer's
> fault but that person has to make a strong appeal to management to make
> more
> time to do it right up front - starting at the schematic level.
>
> How many times do we say "I don't have time to do it right but I've the
> time
> to do it over?" Those words just seem to come out of our mouths so easily
> but what a shame we have to say them when all the answers are there. One
> example is when someone releases a design thought to be complete but some
> of
> the most important things are missing as good drawings and specifications
> with which to communicate requirements, qualify suppliers, and accept or
> reject product.
>
> I'm sure you, as well as the rest of us, have seen way too much time
WASTED
> dealing with good suppliers that do a lot of the DFM work we should have
> done but for lack of time and the ability to COMMUNICATE clearly our
needs.
> I can't tell you how many times I've helped folks qualify better suppliers
> that can be worked with concurrently when the proper language is used. If
> not, a design package is sent out and it may take several weeks to resolve
> all the fabricator's or assembler's DFM issues when it should take two or
> three days at most. Of course, that is more difficicult now dealing with
> Chinese suppliers - as one example - because many of them don't speak any
> language but price.
>
> I've been in a lot of companies both crusading and teaching really
> interesting technical stuff but I learn far more than I teach and that's
> what I want to do here. I want to take this time to do it better next
time.
>
> MoonMan
>
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