Steve,
Yours is the kind of story I really like to hear. I like the small companies
too as it is so much easier to work with management, engineering, and
designers to get things done.
You're right, as is everyone else, bringing up the cost issues. Cost,
however, can be looked at from several angles. What does it really cost
without DFM/CE is one. Usually the up front cost seems to get buried when
the excuse is time. It sure comes back to bite when doing it over.
MoonMan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Smith" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 2:08 PM
Subject: Re: [DC] Fw: [DC] questions please
I have worked at small companies most of my career and prefer it that way.
With many small companies CE is not only a good idea, it's automatically
built in. There is no "throwing the design over the wall to the mechanical
guy" because often I am that mechanical guy. When I hear other designers
say "that's their problem" I get a cold chill down my spine. DFM has been a
must, if for nothing else than to keep our cost down. With the demise of
all our local board houses, a well documented master drawing has become even
more important since we just can't run down the road anymore to solve
problems - not to mention making it easier on the QC inspector in the
receiving department.
Unfortunately small companies (at least here in the mid-west) can not afford
to send people to the design conferences on the coasts. I try to attend as
many meetings as I can at the local IPC Designers Council, but of course
life tends to get in the way. So I just have to get buy on reading
magazines like Printed Circuit Design & Manufacture, this and other forums
on the web and the occasional book - MoonMan, yours looks promising.
My regards,
Steve Smith, C.I.D.
Product Engineer
Staco Energy Products Co.
301 Gaddis Boulevard.
Dayton, OH 45403
Telephone: (937) 253-1191 Ext. 158
Fax: (937) 253-1723
E-mail: [log in to unmask]
Web Site: www.stacoenergy.com
& www.stacopower.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On
> Behalf Of Pete
> Waddell
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 1:13 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [DC] Fw: [DC] questions please
>
>
> I've been watching this forum for the last few days and
> noting the (limited) discussion of DFM. Personally I am quite
> befuddled ( I searched but couldn't come up with a better
> word). Over 10 years ago PCD started a crusade on DFM. We
> organized discussions with designers and manufacturers,
> printed umpteen gazillion articles in the mag, devoted entire
> tracks to the subject at the conferences, yadda yadda yadda.
> It just seemed that people really were not concerned. Granted
> there were and are a core group that grasp(ed) the
> importance and impact of DFM, but the great masses seemed to
> take the point of view that they had been sending out data
> packages and getting back boards so everything must be ok.
> Meantime the shops were saying that the easiest and fastest
> course was to fix what was wrong and build the dang thing so
> they could invoice it.
> Has anything changed? Well, as I said there is that core, but
> times are tough in a lot of places and I certainly
> understand that keeping ones head down and not make waves may
> sometimes may seem to be the best means of survival in the
> short term. But the thing I really have trouble with is that
> the manufacturing community and the suppliers to that
> community keep telling us that they want to reach the
> designers and have a true exchange. They have sponsored and
> organized seminars on the subject, some of them free. But in
> most cases designers are not taking advantage of these
> opportunities. As an example, one person wrote to us to
> complain about our exhibitions at the conferences,
> specifically that there were more board fabricators
> exhibiting than EDA vendors. Think about that a second. Aside
> from the fact that there just aren't that many PCB EDA
> vendors anymore, I'd say that it is as important, maybe even
> more important, that they know and understand their board
> vendor - their capabilities philosophies etc.
> I'm gonna go now, I get frustrated on the DFM subject. Sorry
> for the length of the post, but it's been so long since I
> wrote an editorial I forget when to get out.
> Good luck and hang in there. Trust that someone is listening.
> p.
>
> Pete Waddell
> President
> UP Media Group
> 678-589-8813
> [log in to unmask]
>
> >>> [log in to unmask] 08/24/04 12:29PM >>>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "moonman" <[log in to unmask]>
> To: "Jack C. Olson" <[log in to unmask]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 12:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [DC] questions please
>
>
> Jack,
>
> It really is amazing and very gratifying to see how far
> we've come. You're
> sure right about technical people writing for others
> technical instead of
> trying to sell something.
>
> Concerning the issue about designers improving I can say
> without a doubt the
> biggest one is NOT HAVING THE TIME, as you say. It may not be
> the designer's
> fault but that person has to make a strong appeal to
> management to make more
> time to do it right up front - starting at the schematic level.
>
> How many times do we say "I don't have time to do it right
> but I've the time
> to do it over?" Those words just seem to come out of our
> mouths so easily
> but what a shame we have to say them when all the answers are
> there. One
> example is when someone releases a design thought to be
> complete but some of
> the most important things are missing as good drawings and
> specifications
> with which to communicate requirements, qualify suppliers,
> and accept or
> reject product.
>
> I'm sure you, as well as the rest of us, have seen way too
> much time WASTED
> dealing with good suppliers that do a lot of the DFM work we
> should have
> done but for lack of time and the ability to COMMUNICATE
> clearly our needs.
> I can't tell you how many times I've helped folks qualify
> better suppliers
> that can be worked with concurrently when the proper language
> is used. If
> not, a design package is sent out and it may take several
> weeks to resolve
> all the fabricator's or assembler's DFM issues when it should
> take two or
> three days at most. Of course, that is more difficicult now
> dealing with
> Chinese suppliers - as one example - because many of them
> don't speak any
> language but price.
>
> I've been in a lot of companies both crusading and teaching really
> interesting technical stuff but I learn far more than I teach
> and that's
> what I want to do here. I want to take this time to do it
> better next time.
>
> MoonMan
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