Again, I think PCB's are the greatest thing on earth, except for some other things unmentionable. I love this stuff and I really enjoy all you folks. Still, it amazes me we had to have this dialogue to bring out the best in people and to hear from some of the shops I've never even heard of - let alone heard from before. Best wishes to all and let's all prosper and profit. I just suggest that we could do it better and that applies to most everything, doesn't it. Earl ----- Original Message ----- From: Franklin To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 1999 7:46 AM Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers Earl, Perhaps you would look at this in a different perspective. Network Circuits is also in the business of making a profit (God forbid). Have we always made a profit on orders? Nope, not always. Well why not? Well, because often we are working with the customer to help them prove out an idea, to develop a new technology or design, assist them in improvements to an existing design to improve both theirs and our efficiency, and the list goes on and on and on. So we lose our ass some times. Well then why the heck do we continue to do this? Hmmm, could be because we consider ourselves partners with our customers. We realize that when they win, we also win. Could be because we realize the importance of moving towards the future created or suggested by our customer, they realize where their money will be coming from, and us, as their partner in this, are here to make this as easy as possible. Together, together, together we learn new processes, technology is shared between us, we learn and grow in a mutual relationship that may not only benefit the two companies but I am reasonably sure that these type relationships may have resulted in many of the technological changes all of us have witnessed in the past. Yes we may have lost money at times, but what we learned through this has allowed at least this one board shop to grow. Of course this is just the opinion of a Quality Assurance Manager of a PCB fabricator, so accept this as you see fit. Franklin -----Original Message----- From: pod <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> Date: 04 October, 1999 6:07 PM Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers Joe, There are some outstanding examples of your type. Tyco, and 10% or the others, have done an admirable job, though not keeping ahead of demand. After some years in the business, on many sides of the fence (how many can there be - you'd be suprised) very few innovations or technological changes come from fabricators. That's the shame. We are currently pushing, not being pulled by, 3000 I/O's on selected BGA/CGA types on .8 mm. We've been pushing the envelope for years asking, not pleading and begging, shops to get with the program. However, as long as there is reasonable profit, few followed - let alone led. As an example, I once worked with a premier board shop. The motto on the door, upon entry, was we are a profit making organization. We'll do anything for your money and we did - some of the time. Earl Moon ----- Original Message ----- From: Joe Dickson <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, October 04, 1999 6:42 PM Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Manufacturers > To all I politely disagree, > > I have been to no less than six IPC sponsored seminars > specifically gear to the future trends in the IC industry. > We now have a presentation that doesn't focus on manufacturing > anymore, but how to use manufacturing techniques for routing > advances. We are currently working on a 2000 plus I/O BGA at .8 mm > pitch. I'm sure there are other board shops working with > customers with even higher routing needs. I'm surprised someone > directly from IPC hasn't responded to this e-mail. This has been one > of the most popular issues that I've attended in the last two years. > Our seminars for routing techniques has become the best > attended seminar we sponsor. Even over the PCB manufacturing > guidelines. > > Just a thought, > Joe Dickson > Dir. of Engineering > Tyco Printed Circuit Division > Santa Clara, Calif. > > > > > Paul: Here's my two cents worth- > > > > It gets worse if you think that the PCB manufacturers aren't talking to > > their customer base. They definitely do not talk to the component > > manufacturers. Over the past 24 months, I have had the unusual happenstance > > to visit virtually every IC assembly facility in Asia, as well as many in > > Europe. These include both captive houses, as well as foundry services. > > > > In only one case (IBM) did I find that any PCB manufacturer had ever > > inquired as to where the IC interconnect industry was headed, either > > strategically or short term. How can one industry understand what its future > > requirements will be if they do not understand where their greatest > > challenges are coming from. > > > > The art of copper placement on FR4 is not new; great strides have been made > > to create finer and finer line widths at greater and greater planar > > densities. However, these are mere drops in the bucket when you consider the > > available of 50um wire bonding at 10um pitches. The IC industry can do this > > today if it only had a FR4 substrate capable of accepting it. > > > > As a end user of the PCB industry, it seems the only time we get to talk to > > our PCB suppliers is when there is trouble- either in product performance > > (quality, line yields, etc.), pricing or delivery. > > > > Best regards, > > Bill Davis, Ph.D. > > Sr. Scientist > > (408) 325-7868 > > [log in to unmask] > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Paul Brown [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 2:39 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: [TN] PCB Manufacturers > > > > > > Well > > > > So far we have managed to obtain about 5 replies from PCB manufacturers out > > of how may thousands worldwide > > > > Can anyone suggest a way of getting them involved ? > > > > Surely its about time that the people that use PCB,s( PWB,s) started talking > > to the people that make them! > > > > I used to be a specialty chemical supplier to the PCB industry in the UK and > > realized a long time ago that users of pcbs don't talk to the manufacturers, > > they send them a design and that's it > > The problem is users don't often understand the processes involved in > > manufacture > > > > Any comments > > > > ############################################################## > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > > ############################################################## > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following > > text in > > the body: > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > ############################################################## > > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional > > information. > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at [log in to unmask] or > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > ############################################################## > > > > ############################################################## > > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > > ############################################################## > > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > > the body: > > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > > ############################################################## > > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional > > information. > > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at [log in to unmask] or > > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > > ############################################################## > > > > ############################################################## > TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > ############################################################## > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the body: > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET > ############################################################## > Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional > information. > If you need assistance - contact Gayatri Sardeshpande at [log in to unmask] or > 847-509-9700 ext.5365 > ############################################################## ############################################################## TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c ############################################################## To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET ############################################################## Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information. 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