What type of unit cost is there with purchased nitrogen? Anyone using or have experience with a nitrogen generator? I've been told the purity of the nitrogen from generation is not that good. Craig Smith Paradyne Corp. Ed Holton wrote: > I have found that the nitrogen helps open up the process window of the wave > solder process, particularly with the use of no-clean flux. Reference my > previous reply to another message concerning my feelings and the benfits of > nitrogen. Another reply stated that if solderability of the boards and > components was good, and you used the proper flux, that nitrogen was not > needed, in theory I agree, and at my facility the shelf life of my > components and boards is very short. In theory, if everything is > solderable, you do not need flux. But this is the real world, and we need > to be able to accomodate that reel of components that sat somewhere for 6 > months, and may have solderability problems. Plus, when you are attempting > to reach six sigma levels of quality (I know, not possible with the wave > operation, but I am at 4 sigma now!), you want to take advantage of > everything you can. What is the cost of quality? Thus, I continue to use > nitrogen to enhance my process. Anyway, the nitrogen helps with the > soldering, changing the way solder flows, etc. What it did, was get rid of > the random defects, so any wave solder defects that occured were easily > identifiable as design defects. Nitrogen also fixed some solder defects > that occured due to questionable pad designs. > > How much solder will you save with nitrogen? Cannot give a hard and fast > answer, depends on amount of time in production and a few other factors. > When I did my cost analysis, I was conservative. I knew how much solder > we bought per year and how much dross we created per year. I decided the > difference was how much solder was used in production (stayed on the > board). I made a one to one correlation then between the dross and > remaining solder purchesed. Reduce the dross and we would have to buy less > solder. Presently, we were de-drossing once per day. I decided that with > the nitrogen system, the solder pot would have to be de-drossed once per > week. I extrapolated and decided that one days worth of dross with my > existing machine would equal one weeks worth of dross with my nitrogen > machine. This was backed up by info from SEHO, Electrovert, and existing > users. Eliminate 4/5 of the dross and you eliminate 4/5 of the solder > purchased that generated the dross. The math can be done from there. > Don't forget you are now buying less solder, have less dross to > reclaim(hazardous waste) and to include the cost savings due to reduced > maintenance time. Before I am attacked by others for my assumptions, I had > very little data to work with, luckily I was conservative in my numbers and > the actual cost savings were greater than expected. I too would be > interested in what others have found. While it is not a direct > correlation, I found that the savings due to dross reduction pay for the > nitrogen used in the system. Thus your cost savings is due to improved > quality, reduced maint. time, and a more robust process. > > Consumption of nitrogen can be determined by the machine. Each vendor will > tell you how much N2 the system will use, measured in cubic feet per minute > (or its metric equivalent) > > Other cost savings have been addressed in other responses. if you have any > questions, please call > > Ed Holton > Hella Electronics > 734-414-0944 > > [log in to unmask] on 06/25/98 04:04:04 PM > > Please respond to [log in to unmask]; Please respond to [log in to unmask] > > To: [log in to unmask] > cc: (bcc: Ed Holton/Hella North America Inc.) > Subject: Re: [TN] Nitrogen in the wavesolderingproces > > Hi all, > > I have a few questions like to get the answer from the expertises: > > 1. Nitrogen being used on the wave process, what kind of process > improvement do we achieve? I heard people said that they have better > joint, better reflow..... > 2. If it helps to reduce drossing of solder, how much solder do we save > monthly? How much dross produce/reduce each month? (Use % for > calculation). > 3. How much nitrogen consumption in a month? (Let's say the machine runs > 2 shifts in 22 days/month). > > How can I measure/justify of using nitrogen in the process in terms of > quality and savings? > Your answer would be a great help for me. > > Thanks > > Simon Shin > > > ---------- > > From: superflx[SMTP:[log in to unmask]] > > Sent: Thursday, June 25, 1998 1:19 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] Nitrogen in the wavesolderingproces > > > > If you use a No-Clean flux with clean, fresh components and new HAL or > > OSP boards, the nitrogen will add, marginally, to the process.? If you > > use a water-soluble flux, the nitrogen does not add anything as the > > flux will overcome any oxidation problems. > > Our experiuence has been that Nitrogen doesn't necessarily add > > anything to the soldering process, but helps reduce drossing of > > solder.? If reducing dross can help save money relative to the cost of > > nitrogen, then its a worthwhile investment. > > Phil > > Jesper Kj?rnulf Konge wrote: > > ?? At our factory we are going to have a new waesolderingmachine > > with nitrogensupport. But our director dosen't think that we need the > > nitrogen because it has no effect compared to the price that we have > > to pay. But in me department we dosen't aggree.?? I would like to hear > > about your experience with nitrogen so that we can tell our director > > that it isn't just us that thinks that nitrogen soldering is good. And > > if anyone has a meaning about the Seho MWS-8200 PWR i would like to > > hear that too.?With Regards?Jesper KongeDanica Supply A/SDenmark?Mail > > : [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> > > > > > > ################################################################ > TechNet E-Mail Forum provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > ################################################################ > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following > text in the body: > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TechNet <your full name> > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TechNet > ################################################################ > Please visit IPC web site (http://jefry.ipc.org/forum.htm) for additional > information. For technical support contact Hugo Scaramuzza at > [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.312 > ################################################################ > > ################################################################ > TechNet E-Mail Forum provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c > ################################################################ > To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: > To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TechNet <your full name> > To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TechNet > ################################################################ > Please visit IPC web site (http://jefry.ipc.org/forum.htm) for additional information. > For technical support contact Hugo Scaramuzza at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.312 > ################################################################ ################################################################ TechNet E-Mail Forum provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c ################################################################ To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TechNet <your full name> To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TechNet ################################################################ Please visit IPC web site (http://jefry.ipc.org/forum.htm) for additional information. For technical support contact Hugo Scaramuzza at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.312 ################################################################