Hi folks , Rich., Li , Jesse , Ed , & the rest on this subject. Richard read the inserts bellow please : V V >---------- >From: Hamilton, Richard -4454[SMTP:[log in to unmask]] >Sent: Wednesday, 31 December 1997 6:57 >To: Paul Klasek; TechNet Mail Forum. >Subject: RE: [TN] Cost comparisons TH vs SMT > >Ed and Paul, and the rest, > >I guess my question was a little too broad maybe. Especially based on >the response generated. I was originally trying to let Yuan know that it >may not be easy to get such information. It is a broad subject, & laborious , that's why nobody answers , and there are tons of folks who did the cost feasibility charts, but everybody is flat out & confidential, without the holidays I would not enter the subject either. As Ed said, don't feel about it , it's not easy anywhere anyhow. > >From my standpoint, I am aware of the different factors you need to >review when considering moving from TH to SM. Many of which do *not* >apply to our product, i.e., we are not forced, nor are we pushed into >smaller PWB's, we also do not have a *need* to get more out of a little >package, we have a lot of high power devices which will remain in TH for >many years to come. Our product is analog based and the more 'stations' >we add to a product, the more space we need for analog voltage >switching, and lightning protection. So, hopefully you can see that we >are in an interesting situation. Interesting it is, the mix is not a problem, you just have to watch the handling after SM . From what am I hearing (distantly) if you battle with bean counters & R&D , on budget you can achieve a hell of an improvement on cost, QC, & throughput just with an extra dispenser ; Therefore you dispense a snap cure type dots , P&place, through UV tunnel , flip over & back to front for TH and over dual wave if your pitch does not go over .5mm . I presume (?) the low site of your cards is empty, TH on top ? In that case you could save a fortune almost free. Currently do you have axial &/or radial auto insertion, or what is the manual content? There are other ways (we dispense solder paste, no stencils) , but that's a different chapter again. > >In my process of determining pricing trends, I (an Manf. Eng.) have >spent many an hour/day trying to get some kind of actual idea of what >our real requirement is! I cannot even get our engineering department to >do a pilot of one of our existing units into SM so we can start to get >an understanding of what we really need. I did make note of your >comments on the pricing though, I just need to get some raw data to >substantiate claims....I even worked with 5 of our vendors (one of them >was Marshal!!) and that turned out mixed. The only real info I got out >of that exercise was that the DIP device and the SM device was the same >price, however the lead time was 6 weeks on DIP, and 4 weeks on SM. Raw & Substance, I can understand Richard, plenty woffle round . When you say the same price, that is component only , not inclusive of insertion, real estate, & other factors, is it ? It's all fairly laterally specific to individual product , if you can send me overlays or photo (fax, Paul , +61 2 9878 5517 ), & tell me what gear you have now, I'll send you something more to the point , hard to work blind as you noted yourself . > >I do appreciate the responses though. Let me share the corporate >philosophy: One of the other SBU's (another internal company) had a new >product designed outside, they wanted a bus style product that could be >expanded in the field, ala PC's. What we ended up with was a 18" X 18" >box with everything from TH to SM, single sided, double sided (TH *and* >SM), and a PCMCIA memory card, not off the shelf, CUSTOM!! Well, with >my limited knowledge and experience in SM, I cringed at the fact that >there are 11 different PWB assemblies, with one complete product >consisting of a minimum of 14 PWB's. Richard what is PWB for, is it printed circuit(wired?) board , the terms are bit different on cards here . The custom job IS massive , and if 14 cards in one assembly >> I won't comment on that one . Can see why you're on spin . > >My thought is that this is a nightmare for our plant to 'jump into' SM >with. I see Contract Manufacturing in our horizon for a long time, maybe >not for the complete product, but at least for the super fine pitch and >ultra fine pitch assembly until we can get this TH plant educated and >trained on how to handle SM, and thus take advantage of the benefits, >like Quality, which I see as the most significant benefit to going to >SM. You've got the realities right , educational mare it is (do not try it on your own , work in duplicate or triplicate ; it is massive initially [1-2years], cruise afterwards ), Do not hold much hope in subs (subcontracts) , you'll pay a fortune if you pin them to a tested assy, and you have no idea what and where and how = thermal shocks for example when cold soldered "repairs" will dry on you in the field etc. There may be good guys round , but be skeptical and nosy as hell . > >Sorry to go on here, but I felt like I needed to amplify a little here >so people don't think I just surf and don't do any work myself!! Dead right , no sorries appropriate . > >Oh yea, my fax is (619) 661-4424 and it does get directly into our plant >here in Tijuana, Mexico. Just put my name on it, I will get it!! Thanks > >Thanks again for the helpful advice and any information I may be able to >dig up! > >Richard Hamilton *<():}> >Clemar Mfg. / Rain Bird >[log in to unmask] Richard (and whoever is in evaluating eng. role) , I'd suggest to get off the TNet with this, it will be a protracted issue perhaps boring for most of the folks , due to the specifics to be laundered . Decision is yours. See you Paul: [log in to unmask] , site: www.resmed.com . > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Paul Klasek [SMTP:[log in to unmask]] >> Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 1997 5:26 PM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: Re: [TN] Cost comparisons TH vs SMT >> >> Hi Richard >> >> Could not agree more with Ed ; = feel guilty & out of time . >> What I can tell you as we go through TH > SM conversion right now on >> the >> overall process you save 15-20% , that is materials, directs, OHs , >> etc. >> I did very detailed study for cost benefits validations, inclusive the >> subcontract options ( TH inhouse x SM inhouse x SM contract ) . >> I think you go through the same . >> Let me know if that is so, I'll try to generalise my ( confidential ) >> spreadsheet over Holidays for outside use . >> Let me know the fax No. too , I have some old papers and no scanner . >> >> See you [www.resmed.com] Paul >> >> >---------- >> >From: Ed Holton[SMTP:[log in to unmask]] >> >Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 1997 6:14 AM >> >To: [log in to unmask] >> >Subject: Re: [TN] Cost comparisons TH vs SMT > >> > >> >Richard >> > >> >I understand your frustration about having your question not >> answered, as >> >it has also happened to me in the past. But don't give up the fight, >> you >> >should be applauded for asking the question. That is a much better >> >attitude then never asking. . . >> > ############################################################## TechNet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8c ############################################################## To subscribe/unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the body: To subscribe: SUBSCRIBE TECHNET <your full name> To unsubscribe: SIGNOFF TECHNET ############################################################## Please visit IPC web site (http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm) for additional information. For the technical support contact Dmitriy Sklyar at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.311 ##############################################################