Tom Hybiske asked about "the inclusion or exclusion of nonfunctional lands from internal planes or signal layers." In a Flex circuit design, 12 layers, .120 thick, 18x22 pannel, one board vendor had to remove all "non-functionals" from the internal layers to get the design to laminate. a 2nd vendor quoted the job with all non-functionals removed. This design "worked" when it had 10 layers! (pads-only, 2 planes, 1oz cu). Bill Gaines AeroJet (for $) 1100 Hollyvale, Azusa, Calif. 91702-0298 IEPS (for info) [log in to unmask] IHPVA (for speed & fun) P.O. Box 51255, IN, IN 46251-0255 SCCA (for trophys) Solo II (818-988-RACE) [log in to unmask] 818-812-2199