Louis, > Does the entry control department actually do a manufacturer audit on-site? > (The name 'entry control department' is one I have not heard before.) The name "entry control department" is a direct translation from french, so maybe this is not the right english expression... For this specific manufacturer, i'm not sure they did the audit and as I said, they don't seem to be familiar with the 6012 requirements. > Is your board supplier charging the same price for class 2 and class 3 boards? > That is hard to believe. As you see in 6012, the class 2 requirements are > easier to meet. From time to time we scrap boards for not meeting class 3 > requirements called for by a customer, although they meet class 2. > Microsectioning of class 3 boards calls for more samples than for class 2 This is why I don't think we have a class 3 PCB but a class 2. Thank you to confirm my doubts. If I have to sum-up : the manufacturer have no obligation to store any test report but it's a bit suspicious. Thank you for your feedback Regards, Gorka > Le 3 novembre 2015 à 22:51, Louis Hart <[log in to unmask]> a écrit : > > > I was out yesterday and clearing the desk so far today, hence what may seem > like a slow response. > > You are correct, to my knowledge, about data retention of 6012 testing - it > depends on the company's procedures. If you want, I can provide our record > retention work instruction for a sample. > > Does the entry control department actually do a manufacturer audit on-site? > (The name 'entry control department' is one I have not heard before.) > > How can you be sure? The flippant answer is you can be sure if you witness the > inspections and tests yourself. Regarding their existence, I do not know why > someone would prepare a report and not keep it for a finite time. If a > customer complains or questions what we have done, I want to have some record > that we at least know what we did and to have evidence that we made every > effort, even if our own records demonstrate we made a mistake. Since some > customers wait a year or more before using boards we build, I would want to > keep our records for two years or more. (You remember I said we keep them for > at least seven years with the production travelers.) > > Is your board supplier charging the same price for class 2 and class 3 boards? > That is hard to believe. As you see in 6012, the class 2 requirements are > easier to meet. From time to time we scrap boards for not meeting class 3 > requirements called for by a customer, although they meet class 2. > Microsectioning of class 3 boards calls for more samples than for class 2. > Louis > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gorka BIROT > Sent: Sunday, November 01, 2015 7:50 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [TN] TR: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability > > Louis, > > If I do understand well, the manufacturer has no obligation to store the > 6012 test reports and any data retention mainly depends on each company > quality procedures ? > > To be clear, the entry control department of my company does PCB manufacturer > auditing but they were not awared about 6012's tests described in table 4-3. > > How can I be sure that the PCB I designed meets the class 3 requirements if I > can't check the reports (and if I have serious doubts about their > existence) and theirs frequencies ? > > One more hint: there is no impact on the price between a class 3 and class 2 > when we purchase a PCB.... > > Gorka BIROT > Embedded systems engineer > [log in to unmask] > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > De : Louis Hart [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Envoyé : vendredi 30 octobre 2015 23:21 > À : Gorka BIROT <[log in to unmask]> > Objet : RE: [TN] Class 2/3 test report traceability > > Good question. IPC does not, to my knowledge, which is not slight, define > any retention period. We keep traveler packages for a minimum of seven > years. These packages contain the final inspection checklist, certificate of > electrical test, certificate of conformance, and microsection report. The > microsection coupon mounts we keep for a minimum of three years, along with > the un-sectioned coupons. > > IPC-9252, the electrical test specification to which IPC-6012 refers, > defines information required on a certificate of test, which you might call > a specification regarding traceability. > > Has a manufacturer in fact said "we are certified for class 3 production"? > Or are you anticipating such a response? I would answer with a question: > "What does 'certification' mean, and who 'certified' you?" I might also > ask, "Why do you prepare reports if you are not going to keep them?" (What > do they mean by "reports"?) It would make more sense to have operators and > inspectors just sign the various production and inspection steps on the > traveler. > > IPC offers 'validation services', directed by Randy Cherry, with validated > companies listed here: http://www.ipcvalidation.org/html/list.htm Validation > services started in 2013, I think, so only a few companies are on the list > and none are 6012 validated as I see it. My understanding is that 6012 > validation has only been possible starting early this year. I believe a > company can be validated to class 2 or 3, in the context of various > technology parameters. > > IPC-6011 describes 'qualification', but such qualification is based on a > demonstration agreed to by the supplier and customer, if my understanding is > correct. > > Certifications or qualifications to ISO 9000 or MIL-PRF-31032 I do not > consider impressive, although they do indicate at least some minimal level > of competence. I tell people, if you are concerned about a printed circuit > board supplier, you better go have a look for yourself. Fabrication of > printed circuit boards is not nearly as easy as at lot of people think it > is. Louis > > ______________________ ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________