No self-respecting electronics manufacturer....I agree with both. First speaker is absolutely right , however, the problem is WHAT machine should he select? There is no machine for all tasks. Bev happened to come in that situation, probably because of a ignorant seller. With correct machine, with correct parameters and correct tools you can solder anything. We VP solder microelectronics with good result. But you need a lot of how-to. Bev's parts may had been soldered perfectly with VVPS = Vacuum Vapor Phase Soldering. We used to have one, but there has been changes since I worked there. http://www.ibl-loettechnik.de/downloads/Aktuelles/Todays%20Vapor%20Phase%20Soldering%20SMTAI%20Orlando%20-%20080820.pdf Inge On 7 December 2012 02:03, Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > "No self-respecting electronics manufacturer should be without a > vapor-phase > soldering machine in the facility." > > Sorry, I cannot agree. We tried one and then sent it back. We have a ton > of > RF cans with small holes in them for underfill application. The heat > transfer liquid condensed inside the cans and we couldn't get it out. It > was still there days, probably weeks later and as has already been noted > the > stuff is expensive. And how many of the liquids being used are still > incredibly excellent global warmers? I haven't looked at their tech sheets > lately. > Bev > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D. > Sent: Thursday, December 06, 2012 7:38 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd > > We have two vapor-phase reflow machines here at GD, and I work with VPS at > other companies in the area. The ones we use are from R&D. > http://www.rdtechnicalservices.com/System-RD2.cfm > We have an RD-1 and an RD-2, and I am supporting the installation of an > RD-52 at another site, and have used all three machines at various > companies. > > No self-respecting electronics manufacturer should be without a vapor-phase > soldering machine in the facility. > > For high-mass, difficult-to-solder assemblies, VPS just cannot be beat. VPS > is also an excellent method for performing some of the more advanced > processes such as compliant lead attachment, BGA reballing, CSP and > flipchip > reflow, etc. At one location we set up a really good process for > manufacturing PoP components, including the die-attach where the die-bond > epoxy is cured at the same time the die is soldered. Having an oxygen-free > atmosphere really helps. > > Also, I have found R&D to be a really good company, and the owner is a real > square shooter. They have great VPS machines and good service. I don't have > any experience with other VPS systems, so I cannot comment on that. I have > no financial interest in R&D, just a lot of good experience. > > As with any VPS, proper maintenance is required. With condensation > soldering > you will get a buildup of flux on the inside of the machine and it must be > kept clean. I strictly enforce a monthly maintenance program, and if done > diligently the machines will last a long, long time. For the larger VPS > systems a small chiller is usually required, so keep that in mind when > considering purchasing a system. > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 2:37 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd > > Inge, > > On the VPSsubject your comments echo what I have heard. > > Did you get some actual hands on time for experimentation? If so what > machine? > > Thanks, > Bob K. > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 3:09 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd > > Hi Inge! > > Welcome back ol' buddy! I for one, have missed you here! Wish we could get > Paul to drop in once in a while. But I know that will be unlikely. > > Me a bagpipe blower? You have got to be kidding me! I don't even know how > to > hold one of them things much less play one! They look kinda' creepy to > me...like an octopus or something. But when I hear "Amazing Grace" being > played on bagpipes, my heart pounds and I get goose bumps. > > I've not faded away, I'm still here, just don't have as much to talk about > as I used to. Anyways, this group has never been about any one person, it's > always been about all of us. Some have been here longer than others, but > what has made this email forum as solid and long lasting as it has been, > has > been the contributions from everyone in this group. I hope that this will > continue. > > I'm dealing with what I guess you could call a "speed-bump" in my life's > road right now, but I plan on being here for a long time... > > Again, welcome back! > > Steve > > -----Original Message----- > From: Inge Hernefjord > Sent: Wednesday, December 05, 2012 11:55 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, Au-Pt-Pd > > Hi Wayne & collegues, > > heard from Joyce that you missed my comments. Sorry for that. When Steve > Gregory faded away as kind of bagpipe blower in the TN brigade, I lost some > contact with the troops march and became last one and with time I saw the > troops at distance. Well, with my old legs, seems as I have to get lift > with a jeep and catch up with you. > > On the theme you just discuss with Julie, I'd say to her not to mix with > changing the component finish immediately. Doing such things can end in a > never-ending-process. I am not updated with what is actually going on, so > my > advice may not be of any help, but there is one soldering method that have > a > very generous process window and that is VPS, Vapour Phase Soldering. It > has > some very attractive advantages, like instant and simultaneous heating, > extremly low Oxygen presence and is very fast. All properties that makes > even many poor weldable>acceptable weldable. You may not be able to try > this, of some reason. Just wanted to put up a finger and feel the wind > direction > > Inge > > On 5 December 2012 00:41, Thayer, Wayne - IS > <[log in to unmask]>wrote: > > > Hi Julie- > > > > Sorry for the late response. I have a lot of experience with this or > > similar material. Yes, burnishing helps. I also deliberately use an > > iron tip that doesn't wet well. Paste with SMT works too, and is more > > controllable. We typically used the SnPbAg alloy with about 2%Ag, but > > I don't know if that helped. Our rule of thumb was you got three > > shots to solder to it, IF you used pre-heat and were very careful. > > BUT, this product is cake to solder to compared with AgPd, which most > > of the thick film commercial products used. That stuff would only > > survive a very carefully controlled single reflow. > > > > One thing we learned is that the leach rate SKYROCKETS if the designer > > put the PtPdAu directly on top of thick film Au where the solder was > > going to be. That recipe leaches just as bad as plain gold. The > > overlap MUST be behind a solder dam. (The thick film vendors only > > tell you this AFTER you figure it out on your own!) By the way, plain > > gold solders just fine on ceramic using SnAu eutectic solder. It is > > very expensive and is quite hot (270C or so). The joints are very > > pretty > shiny silver and very strong. > > You can also weld copper wires to thick film gold or silver. > > MiniCircuits > > sells piles of RF parts containing tiny transformers attached this > > way, and this technique is also used on RF inductors which are wound > > on an alumina mandrel. > > > > We ended up having a low temperature copper put on top of the gold > > whenever we could. It is much more robust--still wets horribly though! > > > > Wayne Thayer > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steven Creswick > > Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2012 8:59 AM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, > > Au-Pt-Pd > > > > Julie, > > > > Yes, the addition of a small amount of Pt does slow up the rate of the > > conductors leaching into the solder. From practical experience, the > > more Pt is added, the better the leach resistance. However, the more > > Pt is added, the greater are wetting problems. > > > > Thick film ink suppliers [used to] offer inks with different amounts > > of Pt so you could slightly 'chose your poison.' > > > > Also can depend on whether it is a fritted, or a frit-less, system. > > > > Like Mike says - BURNISH before solder IS the general rule! > > > > Never was something you really 'wanted' to solder to, unless you had > > no other choice. > > > > > > Steve Creswick > > Sr Associate - Balanced Enterprise Solutions > > http://www.linkedin.com/in/stevencreswick > > 616 834 1883 > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Julie Silk > > Sent: Tuesday, November 27, 2012 8:02 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] Termination finishes, Cu thickness under Ag, > > Au-Pt-Pd > > > > The claim of the supplier is that the Pt prevents the Au from > > dissolving into the solder. Hmmm. Can anyone back that up? > > The recent info on this is that it's looking like a wettability > > problem more than a dissolving-into-the-joint problem, although > > neither is confirmed. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or > > [log in to unmask] > > ________________ > > > > ________________________________ > > > > Email addresses of ITT Exelis employees have changed from itt.com to > > exelisinc.com. Please update your favorites and contact information to > > reflect these changes. > > > > This e-mail and any files transmitted with it may be proprietary and > > are intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom > > they are addressed. If you have received this e-mail in error please > > notify the sender. Please note that any views or opinions presented in > > this e-mail are solely those of the author and do not necessarily > > represent those of Exelis Inc. The recipient should check this e-mail > > and any attachments for the presence of viruses. Exelis Inc. accepts > > no liability for any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this > > e-mail. > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or > > [log in to unmask] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________