Hi Bob, great paper what has been presented by NPL at APEX2011. Very interesting and instructive document done by those Experts. I like the Conclusion Copper planes have a significant effect on moisture desorption and hence consideration to their design should be given to bake out requirements. Increasing the bake time, whilst removing more moisture and reducing the delamination risk, can have detrimental effects to the solderability and mechanical properties of the PCB, such that a compromise in bake time should be sought. In many cases, when moisture has diffused under copper planes, it is not feasible to remove the moisture. Hence preventative measures are required to stop moisture entering the PCB in the first place. The removal of moisture may not be straight forward, as was shown for two equal 12 mm square copper planes where in the central region the moisture initially increased during bake out, as the moisture initially equilibrates before diffusing out of the board. If such moisture increases are into a delamination prone region, it is conceivable that baking may in some cases have an unwanted effect of increasing delamination risk So, what can we do with your PCB ? if moisture is inside you should make sure about it and how much it is, and try to get it out. My suggestion is to make your own practical experiments. Find a suitable oven, take a precision scale, just as a good guide-lines to follow refer to TM-650 2-6-28 and play your experiments. Hands-on some time gives us more answers then other way. It just takes time and patience. In my experience I have baked and weighted many Kg of PCBs, just to understand how moisture diffusion behaviour (IN-OUT) is different according to different Laminates, fabrication, staking, thickness, layers, copper, THT, SMT, etc. What I have learned for sure, has been to prevent Baking operations, by controlling PCB packaging and storage conditions, improving handling and storage procedures, and when needed use also Dry Rooms or Dry Cabined keeping RH <10 %, etc. Better, reliable and cheaper then bake PCB. In the Lead Free environment (PCB packing, storage, SMT processes assembly, etc), we have seen how more important and critical is to adopt a correct handling/packing/storage procedure of moisture sensitive PCB. Gabriele -----Messaggio originale----- Da: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Per conto di Robert Kondner Inviato: sabato 22 settembre 2012 2.52 A: [log in to unmask] Oggetto: Re: [TN] R: [TN] Bake time for boards with multiple solid copper planes Richard, From the paper presented at APEX2011 by NPL the diffusion of water vapor is blocked by copper. At one point they show a 20 x 20 cm section of clad laminate takes 45 days at 125C to reach 20% on initial moisture levels. If you can get access to this take a look and let me know what you think. If it is correct then via thermal patterns could be very important when connecting to planes as these will permit vapor to defuse out the laminate. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D. Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 7:08 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] R: [TN] Bake time for boards with multiple solid copper planes Hi, Bob I have performed bake studies on literally hundreds of PWBs, all kinds and types, including copper-inver-copper (did that one with Werner Engelmaier in 1989 at Honeywell), most of the slash-sheet numbers, polyimide, standard FR-4, PEN flex, polyimide flex, and even ceramic substrates. I have done bake studies on little itty bitty PWBs individually, and as part of a larger panel. Even silicon chips. Especially silicon chips and wafers. I have yet to see a PWB that, when saturated at a given humidity level, even outside of a humidity chamber, did not lose a significant percentage of its "saturated weight" within a few hours, whether that saturation was purposely induced within a chamber or simply allowed to come to equilibrium with the naturally occurring humidity in the atmosphere. Even a huge FR-4 CCA that is 40" wide, 38" high, .5" thick, with 48 layers of copper, filled vias and plated shut with copper slugs, will lose LOTS of water when baked in just 12 hours. The CTE of this PWB was such that its overall dimension would shrink a full .38" in width when baked at 105 deg. C., which had nothing to do with water loss, of course. What I was especially amazed by was the amount of water a silicon chip will absorb. You would not think a piece of glass could add 10% of its dry total weight in water less than 8 hours later in a 40%RH atmosphere. ________________________________________ From: TechNet [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Robert Kondner [[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 4:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] R: [TN] Bake time for boards with multiple solid copper planes Gabriele, Thank you, I did start looking and reading. Problem is the bake out time for a 10cm square of a laminated with copper coated top and bottom is something like 2 years. (From the NRL video.) Seems like copper is impenetrable by water vapor. I would assume water in absorbed by the laminate during the manufacturing process so it will exist between solid copper planes. And filling the vias probably makes it even worse. Have not been able to verify any of this yet, it was only through the NPL link that I came to this conclusion. If vias are tied to plane using thermal reliefs, and not flooded, then that makes a board "Bake-able" as vapor can escape. Any thoughts from anyone would be appreciated. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of SALA GABRIELE Sent: Friday, September 21, 2012 3:32 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] R: [TN] Bake time for boards with multiple solid copper planes Hi Bob, suggestion, read (and study): IPC-1601 Printed Board Handling and Storage Guideline http://www.ipc.org/TOC/IPC-1601.pdf (abstract) see chapters 3.4 Baking for Moisture Removal 3.4.1 Problems Caused By Baking 3.4.2 Baking Environment 3.4.3 Baking Considerations 3.4.4 Establishing Baking Profiles Ecc.... Also take a look to Test Method IPC-TM-650 2-6-28 (free download), useful TM that will help you to better assess what it means moisture entrapped in laminate and how to remove it totally, or partially according to your specifications. Moisture Content and/or Moisture Absorption Rate, (Bulk) Printed Board http://www.ipc.org/4.0_Knowledge/4.1_Standards/test/2-6_2-6-28.pdf by experience, in the past, to bake-off PCB from 16 Layers up to 28 L and more, after about 14-18 months of shelf, even if well packed, we use to bake them at 115°C for 16 h, some time 18 h or 24 h, depending of thickness, size and weight and a general assessment about % of resin content versus fiber-glass (construction and stake-up +Copper content). Some time, to protect of OSP finish, we use to blow N2 inside the ventilated Oven Important: no need to remove all the moisture entrapped, but just the enough MAMC (Maximum Acceptable Amount Content). Other suggestion, when staking PCB inside oven, pile them up at a maximum height of 25 mm ( 1 inch), in such way the vapour flows out easily. Have a good luck Gabriele -----Messaggio originale----- Da: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Per conto di Robert Kondner Inviato: venerdì 21 settembre 2012 19.04 A: [log in to unmask] Oggetto: [TN] Bake time for boards with multiple solid copper planes Hi, Can anyone point me to a document that describes how moisture can be driven out of internal PCB layers if solid copper layers exist above and below internal layers? When routing PCB connections to internal layers, say GND for example, you want to tie together multiple GND plane layers. But unless a thermal connection is provided I see no way for moisture to escape from internal layers. Using thermal vias breaks up GND planes so it is common to flood vias. Question: Do flooded vias to multiple layers raise problems with bake out? Bob K ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. 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