Bob, But, you are describing "Inspected In" quality, not "Designed In". I cringe at that! :-) Hey, I agree, the real world has a lot of problems but if the problems are at a level where they matter then it is time to change something to where the problems don't happen or issues are tested out to the required level. I also see lots of dollars going into final PCB "Inspection" and I know they only catch 50% of the problems. I would rather fire the inspectors and improve the process such that there are only 33% of the errors. Now we have low costs and better quality. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Wolfe Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 2:16 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Design Rant Bob, Yes we all cringe when we mistakes, and we all do from time to time. That why they make erasers right. But with enough people looking at it hopefully none make to outgoing product. If fab house catches something at least there might be chance to correct before assembly and so on, yes still possibly a costly or time sensitive mistake, but every bit of checking helps. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:48 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Design Rant Actually, We only cringe at the errors we catch. How many go out the door? Now that makes me cringe! :-) Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ahne Oosterhof Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 1:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Design Rant You may cringe at such questions, but you should feel lucky. Just imagine what would happen if that person did not ask such questions and just blundered ahead! Maybe that's why us old people are still around: to teach them young-uns how to do things. As an aside: I had to teach a small group how to use the software to prepare the data to cut a stencil. Most of them were "experienced" manufacturing people. One person hardly knew what a circuit board was or what a stencil was needed for. She kept asking question after question. But in the end, she became the person proficient at getting stencil data ready for the lasers! Happy holidays, And keep teaching! All of you! Thanks, Ahne. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Wolfe Sent: 22 December, 2011 7:36 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] PCB Design Rant My Turn on The Soap Box I 100% agree with yours & Pete Houwen's comments No offense to anyone just starting out in design, don't take this the wrong way, but I absolutely CRINGE when I read some of the questions posted here & mostly on the Designers Council forum about design. Like "What is a via?" Pretty scary stuff!!!!!!!! I keep hoping I won't be buying any products designed by these people. Problem is everyone needs to start someplace (however it would help though to have at least one other Sr. level person with you in the dept as a Mentor) It is a good thing is we have these types of forums & the fact that they are actually asking questions and not blindly muddling along is somewhat comforting. But an email forum can't replace formal training. Proper training in both design & CAD tool should be absolutely required!!!!!! Once one has had extensive design experience & been thru a few CAD systems only then should one consider self training on a new CAD system. But formal training does shorten that learning curve substantially. Happy Holidays Bob -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Rex Waygood Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 7:00 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] PCB Design Rant A follow on from QFP centre slug over signal vias There are some interesting comments in the QFP thread which are to do with PCB design and they have caused me to pull out my current soap box. I would like to be a bit extreme and say there should be a tax of a few thousand pounds or dollars imposed upon those that give away free CAD packages. The money raised should be provided to vendors who sell real CAD packages to subsidise PCB layout training in order to allow cost effective and reliable pcb design, assembly design, rework and design for test to be taught properly. Why is it that an electronics engineer will design a circuit and then feel that he is competent to lay out the circuit using a free CAD package? The fact that the CAD package was free meant that management were not involved and the consequences of a PCB being laid out by someone with little or no knowledge of the pcb industry or even the assembly industry were not considered. The list of stupid things we see is very long, it results in pcbs and assemblies being more expensive to procure, less reliable to manufacture, difficult to make, impossible to test, slower to get into production and just downright rubbish. The free CAD package cannot provide intelligent data means that a reverse engineering process is required to attempt to undo some of the stupidities we see. Words like DRC and libraries are an unknown for many using these packages. Also I'd rather tell a six year old that Fred, their pet turkey, is required as a sacrifice for thanks giving day than explain to a young circuit designer with a free CAD package that he is delving into areas that he should stay out of and that his layout is very bad. That doesn't mean I don't do it but Fred's demise is easier. I could go on but mince pies are calling Happy winter solstice Rex ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. 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