Iain, Do you mean soldering? Yes, very tricky. The pulled-back terminations make it very difficult to tell if a good joint has been made. And that's a lot of gold. Gold removal can make the issues even worse. Ben -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Braddock, Iain (UK) Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 7:11 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: EXTERNAL: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Anyone successfully processing QFN components like Hittite's HMC553LC3B, especially with a Mydata........tricky little rascal? Regards, Iain -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bush, Brien Sent: 13 October 2011 11:38 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout *** WARNING *** This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an external partner or the Global Internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Hi Paul, We have been using Mydata's for the past 20 years. We also place QFN'S and LGA's. We have had our share of Issues, but we are able to process these parts very well now. We can tell the machine where to test the board Level and use no place force. When these parts are place, you will not see any board deflection. I find the Mydata machines very user friendly. Brien Bush -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tan Geok Ang Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 3:34 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Hi Paul, Like your statement "we don't use MyDatas for QFNs" should add and "LGA". Really hope that MyData able to solve this issue which I believe through their software control with Z-height head/Component thickness/Board flat measurement information, etc. Regards Geok Ang (Office: 68712393) -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Edwards Sent: Wednesday, 12 October 2011 8:22 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Bob, It would be if I told you that we released the part after we deformed the solder paste 30%... And that's why we don't use MyDatas for QFNs... Paul Paul Edwards Process/Quality Engineering Surface Art Engineering -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kondner [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 11:59 AM To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'; Paul Edwards Subject: RE: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Paul, Hmmmm so you say you don't deform the solder paste thickness by more than 30%. Hmmm. Since the paste is probably about 4 or 5 mils high that means you position the part within about 1.5 mils. Hmmmm Considering the PCB thicknesses vary more than that, and part thicknesses vary more than that, and board flatness is much further off than 1.5mil ... I would suggest your comment is pure hog wash? :-) Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Edwards Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:46 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Bob, We measure the part and PCB warp and vary the part vacuum release point based on that to insure we are not deforming the printed solder paste structure more than about 30%... Because the MyData can't do that we don't typically use the MyData for QFNs... Paul Paul Edwards Process/Quality Engineering Surface Art Engineering -----Original Message----- From: Robert Kondner [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:49 AM To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'; Paul Edwards Subject: RE: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Paul, I don't think we are on the same wavelength. Are you telling me you can drop a part 50mil onto a board to avoid pressing it down into the paste? I cannot imagine doing that and getting any placement accuracy. That would be nonsense. It is in the force sensor where the machine detects board contact. Also, watch the board deflection as a part is placed, you would be surprised. The MyData's allowed me to slow down placement to where you can actually see this deflection. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Paul Edwards Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 12:09 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Normally we set the machines to a height placement point for QFNs to fix the problem BUT you can do that on all machines and in ALL cases but when you can it eliminates most of the problems... Paul Paul Edwards Process/Quality Engineering Surface Art Engineering -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 8:51 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Karen, Sadly I know more about the problems and not as much about the solutions! :-( For example the placement force on most Pick and Place (PnP) machine has a minimum setting. If you place a small part with a small number of leads the "Pressure" (Force / Area) on the paste is very high and can squish paste into places you don't want it. Take a look at a board as if comes off a PnP machine. Lift of some small parts and you will see that leads have been pushed down through the paste to the PCB copper. This works great for gull wing parts, it helps insure a good reflow. But guess what happens on a small QFN? Actually the paste on the large center thermal pad helps act like a standoff. But, how flat is the PCB as it sits on the PnP and where did the operator decide to place board supports? So much for the part coming down flat onto the PCB as it is placed! Ugh, so many problems and so few solutions! Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Karen Tellefsen Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:39 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout How does one do these calculations, what are the rules? Is there a web site that can provide guidance? QFN's are difficult to solder well Karen Tellefsen - Electrical Testing [log in to unmask] 908-791-3069 Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout Robert Kondner to: TechNet 10/11/2011 10:29 AM Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]> Please respond to rkondner Pete, I agree. Sometime it is less of an agenda and more of a case of never having reflowed these parts. My observation with QFNs has suggested having a good .5 to 1.0 mm of pad outside the package. It acts like a solder reservoir area allowing solder to flow out from under the leads as the component reflows and settles down. So often I see suggest QFN footprint with no such area. Just a non-qualified observation. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pete Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 9:32 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] [DC] QFN layout I never trust the manufacturer's suggested footprint, always do my own calculations. They have a different agenda than I need to have. 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