"Yes, Sir" usually OK as long as you have all the design in detail nailed. The creative rule bending free spirits are the scary one. My 2 cents. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Robert Kondner Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 1:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] OT RE: [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Thanks, you demonstrates my point when you called the doc a SPECIFICATION: You Wrote: "The specifications are a teaching tool..." You Wrote: "Here, go read this specification and then let's sit down and discuss..." Duh, I thought they were "Consensus Documents"? How many of the "Hordes" really go and read the IPC docs and think? Not many. When there is an ignorant individual on the customer side it is more likely that we must click our heels and say "Yes Sir". And the ignorant customer knows he/she is justified to demand the "Heel Click" as they just read the specification. Thanks. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 12:14 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] OT RE: [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Ohhhhhhhh, I dunno. Without a doubt, specifications are misused, misunderstood, misapplied, etc. The laws of supply and demand do not apply to the foolish - we have a far greater supply of fools than we have demand for. BUT, ya gotta start somewhere. I am in the position here at Rockwell of training hordes of new engineers on cleaning processes, chemicals, conformal coatings, etc. The specifications are a teaching tool and a starting point. Here, go read this specification and then lets sit down and discuss what is right and wrong about it and what it means to Rockwell Collins and the Aerospace Industry. When the ignorant individuals are on the customer's side of the fence, then it is a teaching opportunity. The answer is not abolish consensus documents, the answer is patient education and better training. I can say from experience that it helps my case tremendously when I can show that we are in leadership positions in the IPC committees. Aids tremendously in listening. Doug Pauls "Robert Kondner" <[log in to unmask]> 09/29/2011 10:53 AM Please respond to <[log in to unmask]> To "'TechNet E-Mail Forum'" <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]> cc Subject RE: [TN] OT RE: [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Doug, The spreading of information is a plus in my book, I am a big fan of IPC docs for that. And I tip my hat towards anyone who pulls together a good process analysis. But more often "Consensus Documents" are used as a "Specifications" by hordes of poorly trained "Technical Experts". Some of the nonsense about paste expiration dates, final rinse in DI water and other are perfect examples. Without a doubt there is much each of us needs to learn, and there are many issues in a manufacturing process. But a "Consensus Document" leads too many to stop thinking and stop learning. The result is the bitter reward. Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:37 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] OT RE: [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Ohhhhhh I dunno. Bob, while there are down sides to consensus documents, they are pretty darn good when you consider the alternatives and provide a common ground that make "exceptions" easier to do. I know I would much rather say, use workmanship per IPC-A-610, except for A, B, C. Rather than write a complete document, which I have done. Taint easy. Doug Pauls "Robert Kondner" <[log in to unmask]> 09/29/2011 10:23 AM Please respond to <[log in to unmask]> To "'TechNet E-Mail Forum'" <[log in to unmask]>, <[log in to unmask]> cc Subject OT RE: [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Consensus Documents. I abhor that concept. (Yes, I know, the EU seems to love them .) Hmmmm, think about this: How Governments Make Laws: Price Fixing Social Mandates Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact Bob K. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2011 11:13 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Prashant, Keep in mind that IPC documents are consensus documents. What may be good as a general guideline may not be adequate for niche applications or for various industry segments. We have the same issue with the IPC-A-610. Excellent as a base document but does not necessarily have what our Aerospace company needs for some applications, so we make exceptions for those. Doug Pauls prashant chopra <[log in to unmask]> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]> 09/29/2011 07:34 AM Please respond to TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to prashant chopra <[log in to unmask]> To <[log in to unmask]> cc Subject [TN] DFM Guidelines v/s IPC Guidelines Hi, Hello everyone. I have a very basic question here. Why do we require our own specific DFM guidlines (every OEM / CM will have their own specific DFM Guideline) when we have the IPC guidelines defined and available? I am looking for the pointers and specific examples which can highlight the need to have and develop specific DFM guidelines for a company. Thanks in advance. Regards Prashant ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. 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