Hey I resemble that remark. Bob Wolfe -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge Hernefjord Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 1:14 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion piece by James Smith You are lucky. No Big Bad Wolf chasing you. Inge On 4 May 2011 00:43, Bev Christian <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Inge, > Hey! Laura Turbini, Joyce Koo and I are still Quality and people in our > company KNOW we are still here! > Bev > RIM > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Inge H > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 3:59 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion > piece > by James Smith > > .....quality teams...! Do they still exist? When I was young, they were > semper fi. Nowadays more like semper fin. The quality engineer was highly > respected, not to say dreaded. Not seldom he reported directly to the head. > The q guys today are often reduced to shy people anxious not to disturb and > without the authority that comes after many, many years of sniffing machine > oils. > I hope on the return of Yoda. > Inge > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE)" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 03, 2011 4:00 PM > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion > piece > > by James Smith > > > The 5 S principles have had that effect on a lot of floors. > Nice to find you in good spirits. > Dewey > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:58 PM > To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE) > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion > piece by James Smith > > The bar seems to raise itself at times, after the sixth single malt. As > for the floor lowering, five suffice before it moves all over the place. > > Brian > > On 02/05/2011 20:30, Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE) wrote: > > Even with the best intent on your part to justifiably "raise the bar", > > this is a potentially false perception due to your supply chain > > implementing a "lowering of the floor" strategy. > > This is on a par with me trying to explain how clever and witty > > "Deweyisms" are to someone when English is not their native language. > > Dewey > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks, Bill > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 9:52 AM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion > > piece by James Smith > > > > I have been 'listening' to this thread and it kind of struck a nerve. > > 'Designing to minimums' or to 'just meet a spec'. Not just meeting > > minimums on the low side of the 'bell curve'... but DESIGNING to the > > minimums... I have seen this happen a number of times where someone > > reads a MIN. requirement spec and then designs to it. WRONG! Only > > inexperienced folks who don't understand tolerances' do this sort of > > thing. > > When we train PCB designers we drill it into their heads... don't > forget > > the tolerances. Worst case means WORST case....even after everything > > else has gone to the extreme limits... If you want reliability you > need > > to design in some 'de-rating' into your tolerance calculations... give > > yourself some 'head room' for things to go wrong... a good design will > > still fly even if everything else has failed... by design. It doesn't > > happen by accident. > > > > I believe board manufacturers use the IPC standards as a way to > commonly > > agree what minimum acceptance they can 'get away with' process-wise... > > but if their customers aren't designing their products to achieve the > > results needed then they are going to just make a lot of scrap. > > Tolerances statistically will get you every time! > > > > Maybe what this guy James Smith was 'trying' to say is, (even though > he > > did it badly), that he needs to 'raise the bar' of the design higher > > because he is seeing the quality of the boards coming in and they > aren't > > acceptable to him or his company... even though they are meeting the > IPC > > standards. Maybe he needs to hold his vendors to a 'higher standard' > or > > or rather a higher design requirement... ??? Typically when the min > > requirements stated in an IPC standard are not acceptable to us for > our > > product, we put an exclusion or acception in the notes of the drawing > to > > say how our requirements differ from the spec. IPC specs are a > > baseline... from there you can design in the higher quality through > your > > DESIGN requirements. DON'T design to the minimums... BAD DOG... TIME > > OUT... NO COOKIE... > > Frankly, James is blaming the wrong guys... it's not the IPC > > standards... it the design and quality teams not setting the > > requirements high enough for his product. > > > > Imho :) > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Bill Brooks | Datron World Communications, Inc. > > PCB Designer/Engineer | Office: 760-602-7004| Fax: 760-597-3777 | > > [log in to unmask] > > 3055 Enterprise Court, Vista, CA 92081 | www.dtwc.com > > > > Performance You Require. Value You ExpectTM > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Woolley, Mark D. > > (Mark) > > Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 7:16 AM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] "The Curse of IPC-A-610 and IPC-J-STD-001" - opinion > > piece by James Smith > > > > Sorry, Let me try again. (I don't know what happened the last time.) > > > > Being a slave to "Standards" is not where we should be as an industry. > > The "standards" are, in reality, minimum acceptable criteria. I often > > hear manufacturers state that they build to a standard or their > product > > meets the "standards." > > > > However, as I inspect these products per the same standards (mostly > > IPC-A-600 and IPC-A-610), I see that while the product might meet the > > "Standards" it was manufactured along the minimum edge of > acceptability > > per the standard. > > > > An example: Visible, opaque particulates embedded in the solder mask > > might meet the IPC-A-610 standard if they do not encroach on certain > > areas of the PWB. But what does finding multiple occurrences of > > particulates in the solder mask mean in terms of the PWB manufacturing > > quality? Unless you are dealing with military classes, in mass > > production a close visual inspection can only be performed on a > limited > > number of units. If those units barely meet the standard what does > that > > indicate about the remainder? (How many particulates might be > embedded > > within the PWB layers where they are not readily visible? And of > these > > how many could eventually cause a short?) > > > > Meeting the Standards is not sufficient to build a reliable product. > > The standards must always remain as the minimum acceptable criteria > not > > as the expected mean or median product. > > > > The IPC committees put long hours into each specification to clarify > > points and make the items as understandable as possible. IPC-A-610E > > (and later revisions) is a great asset. Pictures showing both the > good > > and the bad are presented. But never is it stated in the > specification > > (that I have read) that a process that consistently produces products > at > > the edge of acceptability (per the standard) is acceptable to > industry. > > > > Having said that I must agree with Brian's statement: > > > > "In short, Standards, used appropriately, can help, as far as > possible, > > to perfect reliability for a given application. Used inappropriately, > > they can drive up costs dramatically ..." > > > > There needs to be common sense in the application of the standards, > both > > from a user and a manufacturer point of view. Customers' don't want > > manufacturers to hide behind the "Standards' Wall" when confronted > with > > issues with their products. And the products should be manufactured > in > > a manner that places only the smallest percentage, (ideally none) of > > products below these limits. > > > > > > > > mark > > Mark Woolley |PTRL Laboratory | Avaya | 1300 West 120th Ave | > > Westminster, CO 80234 USA | > > Voice (Lab): (303) 538-2166 | email: [log in to unmask] | > > > > > > ---- > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or > > [log in to unmask] > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 16.0 > > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text > > in > > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail 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To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > > Search the archives of previous posts at: > http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > > For additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 16.0 > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the 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For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 16.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives For additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------