A rose is rose to many men (excluding 2½), but the symbolism of what it represents, as in life doesn't necessarily come out in the wash. Dewey -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Douglas Pauls Sent: Monday, April 25, 2011 9:38 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. Brian, I would not argue with you and would heartily concur. But the original question related to a "requirement" to use DI water. Your point that to meet cleanliness requirements you need DI water depends on how you look at it. Since the only present requirement in J-STD-001 is the ROSE requirement, wide enough to drive a truck (or lorry for our UK friends) through, could probably be met with lesser quality water, but yet still fail in the field. There have been a large number of companies who have relied on the ROSE values, only to have expensive recalls. Doug Pauls Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]> 04/25/2011 09:20 AM Please respond to TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to Brian Ellis <[log in to unmask]> To <[log in to unmask]> cc Subject Re: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. Doug "But I don't believe that document ever states DI water use as a "requirement", but one that is strongly recommended." I'll go along with this, but with a rider "if it can be economically justified. If not, the overall process must be very carefully qualified to ensure it meets technical requirements." or words to that effect. I suggest this because DI-ing water is not cheap and many here will testify that using tap water is OK ***under some conditions***. I would also add a second rider, "Under no circumstances should softened water be used." and I'm even more categorical here as, in my former life, I have come across several cases where 2Na+ ions were more dangerous than Ca++ ions because of the high hygroscopicity and solubility of sodium salts. Brian On 25/04/2011 15:58, Douglas Pauls wrote: > To the best of my knowledge, no where in IPC specifications is the use of > deionized water "required" for cleaning processes. I would agree that the > use of DI water would be considered an industry best manufacturing > practice. We require its use in all our cleaning processes here. > > Note that the IPC-A-62A is an older document. All of the cleaning > handbooks are being pulled together in the forthcoming CH-65 cleaning > handbook, which should be issued in the next few months. But I don't > believe that document ever states DI water use as a "requirement", but one > that is strongly recommended. > > Doug Pauls > > > > David Bealer<[log in to unmask]> > Sent by: TechNet<[log in to unmask]> > 04/25/2011 07:17 AM > Please respond to > TechNet E-Mail Forum<[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to > David Bealer<[log in to unmask]> > > > To > <[log in to unmask]> > cc > > Subject > Re: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. > > > > > > > Being that IPC-AC-62A is a handbook and that both sections you reference > do not use the words "shall" or "must"; I would say that using DI rinse > water is not a requirement, but best practice. > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Forrester, Michael > (H USA) > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 5:17 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. > > Dave, > > For water washable fluxes, where cleaning is required, is > DI > water REQUIRED per > IPC? IPC-AC-62A section 13.3 Final Rinse: implies DI water, section > 10.6 I'm not > sure what it implies. It states DI is preferred and then goes on to say > it > (refering to DI water) doesn't have to be ultra pure (18.2 MegOhm-cm) > and that > 1 to 5 MegOhm-cm is satisfactory. 1-5 MegOhm-cm DI water a min. > REQUIREMENT? I > have one side saying IPC spec REQUIRES DI water and the other side > saying IPC spec > only recommends/prefers DI water. It is basically a compliance issue. > If DI water > is not used in the aqueous wash is that a violation of IPC > specifications? > > Best Regards, > > Michael Forrester > Sr. Product Engineer > CSMTPE > > Siemens Healthcare Diagnostics > 101 Silvermine Rd. > Brookfield, CT 06804 > PH: (203) 740-6452 > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Bealer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 5:56 PM > To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Forrester, Michael (H USA) > Subject: RE: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. > > As I read IPC-610E; cleaning is not a requirement, as Flux residues from > no-clean processes are acceptable for classes 1,2,& 3. > > We require our assemblies to meet IPC class 2, however we separately > require those same assemblies to meet specific cleanliness requirements > because of the end use environment. To meet those cleanliness > requirements we use a water washable flux, and an inline recycling water > wash system where the final rinse water is a minimum of 2Mohm. > > BR, > David Bealer | SMT Department Manager > Phone: (217) 442-0611 ext. 6022 | Fax: (217) 477-7134 > > Watchfire Signs by Time-O-Matic Inc. > [log in to unmask] > www.watchfiresigns.com > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Forrester, Michael > (H USA) > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:06 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. > > What I'm trying to find out is do IPC specifications REQUIRE > DI water? > > Best Regards, > > Michael Forrester > Sr. Product Engineer > CSMTPE > > Siemens Healthcare Diagnostics > 101 Silvermine Rd. > Brookfield, CT 06804 > PH: (203) 740-6452 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Woolley, Mark D. (Mark) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 4:57 PM > To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Forrester, Michael (H USA) > Subject: RE: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. > > Unless DI water is continuously cleanses and filtered, DI water will > decrease in resistivity due to disolved CO2. I believe that clean water > without dissolved ions should be used for celaning, but it does not have > to meet the DI water standard of 20Mohm resistivity as would be required > for a wafer process. > mark > > > mark > Mark Woolley |PTRL Laboratory | Avaya | 1300 West 120th Ave | > Westminster, CO 80234 USA | > Voice (Lab): (303) 538-2166 | email: [log in to unmask] | > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Forrester, Michael > (H USA) > Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2011 1:36 PM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: [TN] Aqueous Wash, DI water and IPC Specifications. > > I have a question about aqueous wash. There is a difference of opinion > on what IPC REQUIRES as far as wash water. The main issue is does IPC > specifications REQUIRE or PREFER/RECOMMEND DI water for aqueous wash? > > IPC-AC-62A I don't think is clear. The spec in section 10.6 states: > > "Rinse Water Parameter: Good quality deionized water is the > preferred rinse medium. However, this is not meant to suggest that > ultapure, 18.2 megohm-cm water is necessary. Water in the 1 to 5 > megohm-cm region will be satisfactory for most operations" > > The same spec in section 13.3 states: > > "Final Rinse: This cleaning step is where the board is subject to > purified DI water rinse." > > The PCBA print basically calls out build to IPC-610 class 2 and does not > call out any specific cleaning specifications. So, with all that said, > Is it an IPC REQUIREMENT to use DI water for aqueous wash? Thank you. > > > > Best Regards, > > Michael Forrester > Sr. Product Engineer > CSMTPE > > Siemens Healthcare Diagnostics > 101 Silvermine Rd. > Brookfield, CT 06804 > PH: (203) 740-6452 > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > ------- > This message and any included attachments are from Siemens Healthcare > Diagnostics > and are intended only for the addressee(s). > The information contained herein may include trade secrets or privileged > or > otherwise confidential information. Unauthorized review, forwarding, > printing, > copying, distributing, or using such information is strictly prohibited > and may > be unlawful. 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