-------engage a consultant like me........ ........$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ !! Inge -------------------------------------------------- From: "Werner Engelmaier" <[log in to unmask]> Sent: den 13 April 2010 10:24 To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C > Hi John, > Commercial labs do not interpret—they only tell you whether or not the > product is within spec. > For the interpretation of their results and the determination of the > underlying root cause(s) you need to engage a consultant like me— maybe > you want to be an independent consultant. > Werner > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Burke <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Tue, Apr 13, 2010 1:08 pm > Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C > > > And of course when anything goes wrong - (and this is not new - it has > been > my experience over the last 30 years) you have a finger pointing game > between the suppliers which generally consist of: > > The solder manufacturer > The contract manufacturer > The PCB house > The designer > > The solder manufacturer will point at the CM profile as a first strike and > then at the board manufacturer as a backup. > The board manufacturer will point at the solder manufacturer and the CM > profile as a dual first strike. > The CM will point at the board, the solder and (sometimes) the design. > The designer will point to a dozen other assemblies with the same > footprints > that do not have the problem. > > A good business to be in would be an independent FA lab.......... > > > John Burke > (408) 515 4992 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Gregg Owens > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 9:00 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C > > Pete: > > Your "rant" could easily be extended to every area of PCBA manufacturing. > The rise of PCBA assemblies houses in the 1980s are examples of how > management has tried to save upfront costs only to pay more in the end > with > longer lead times. This is not to say assembly houses are "bad" but it > transferred the electronics manufacturing process away from the very > people > who would be installing and using the PCBAs - the end users. This business > model has created lots more finger pointing between end users and the > board > and assembly houses because the end users no longer retain the experience > necessary to clearly determine whether the root cause of a problem is > design > or process related. Then this century throw in lead-free and you end up > with > lots of folks working very hard in this industry but with all too great > ignorance of the materials and processes they are using, all the while > trying to keep quarterly profits in a positive position. I will now get > off > my soap box. > > Gregg Owens > Technical Writer - Avionics > Space Exploration Technologies Corporation > (310) 363-6533 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pete Houwen > Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 7:19 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Contract PCB Design Services T&C > > Bob, I'm in a rather similar situation. A company of 3000+, R&D locations > on 3 continents and 2 islands. I am the sole remaining PCB designer. > > To answer your questions first: > > 1. We have a set of company specific design standards, mostly to make > sure > the data we receive is compatible with MRP and CAM standards, and it makes > it easier for me to pick up the "finished" job and, well, finish it. But > we > don't keep a standard agreement, as the services we require change based > on > the design. > > 2. If a company can not deliver what we have asked for, either during or > at > the end, they don't get paid. In a situation such as yours, a mutual > agreement to terminate the effort, we would pay them for the part of the > work we can use, whatever did meet parts of the agreement. This has > happened before. > > now the rant: > > We laid off all the designers but me. We send the work to China, using > engineers with no PCB experience whatsoever, to do design and > documentation. > Their cost is 1/3 of ours. It takes them 3x as long to deliver a design. > Between the time I spend getting them started and correcting after, I > spend > 1.5x what it would take to do the design myself. To Sr. > management, this is cost savings. Lately, we have been contacting one of > the designers we laid off. We pay him almost what it cost when he was > employed here. And again, add in my time, so we're about even now. That > works well, except that he has another full time job, so turn time is > longer. > And since I am stretched so thin, there have been errors - costly errors, > and reduced manufacturability. > > Here's hoping the new "Undercover Boss" TV series starts opening some > eyes. > > Pete > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To > unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the > BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or > (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET > Technet > NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send > e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of > previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web > site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 > ext.2815 > ----------------------------------------------------- > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To > unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the > BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or > (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET > Technet > NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send > e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of > previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web > site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional > information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 > ext.2815 > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > for > additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. > For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > ----------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------