Focus, focus! Jowan, you are stalking my question ;-) Are you successfully doing lead-free soldering on ImAg boards? SMT double sided with TH, or not what complexity? What is your successful recipe? Thanks, Ioan Tempea, ing. Ingénieur Principal de Fabrication / Senior Manufacturing Engineer T | 450.967.7100 ext.244 E | [log in to unmask] W | www.digico.cc N’imprimer que si nécessaire – Print only if you must -----Message d'origine----- De : Iven, Jowan [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Envoyé : February-18-10 8:09 AM À : [log in to unmask] Objet : Re: [TN] Lead-free soldering on ImAg Mike, Finding the paste or boards is no problem. Just wondering if anyone had very good reasons for using nitrogen in reflow. Reasons that can justify the costs. Not just a gut feeling. Jowan -----Original Message----- From: Mike Fenner [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 1:22 PM To: Iven, Jowan; [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: Lead-free soldering on ImAg I would say not. 1) YOu should be able to find a paste that works double sided. It's a standard new paste evaluation test by customers in this part of the world and one that we do in developing pastes. 2) the board solderability comes into this also of course. Yu could consider spending a few hundred dollars in time finding a supplier who can supply solderable boards! Regards Mike -----Original Message----- From: Iven, Jowan [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:01 AM To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: Lead-free soldering on ImAg Mike, Reflow investment (the nitrogen option) and operational costs for Nitrogen (10 years) can add up to 135000 $. Is this worth the investment in a nitrogen reflow oven? Jowan -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mike Fenner Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2010 10:11 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Lead-free soldering on ImAg Inerting does reduce oxidation and make life easier for the flux, but apart from the hourly material cost you also alter the effective surface tension of the solder leading to higher tombstoning tendency (esp. in Pb-) Most people second side solder in nitrogen, but very low grade - typically <80% nitrogen, (balance oxygen, 1% other) :) and that is a reasonable expectation. Regards Mike Fenner, Indium Corporation Europe -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bob Landman Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 9:31 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Lead-free soldering on ImAg Kevin, I would think that, while it costs more, the use of nitrogen when doing ImAg would help alleviate the problems you mention? I understand it costs more but I wonder, isn't it worth the difference in the end results? I recall a recent article in SMT on the use of nitrogen and one of the factors that significantly improved was the reduction in oxidation so the flux didn't have to be so aggressive? How significant a difference in cost is the use of nitrogen? Bob Landman H&L Instruments, LLC -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Glidden, Kevin Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 1:20 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Lead-free soldering on ImAg Dave, Did your investigations utilize double sided reflow as well as single sided, plus secondary soldering? Do you see degradation to solderability after multiple soldering processes? We utilize ImAg finish in a traditional SnPb process, and we DO sometimes see solderability issues. Even normal SnPb reflow temperatures can accelerate the oxidation on the second side pads before they are printed and placed. The two reflow passes required for double sided SMT can make any post-SMT soldering (such as for hand soldering components or wire attachment) even more difficult. Your materials used (flux types & activity levels) can drastically effect whether or not surface oxidation can be overcome to allow proper wetting. Just as important (if not more) is controlling the exposure of the PCB to sulfur compounds or moisture, both of which can begin and accelerate the oxidation. Putting controls in place to ensure proper packaging and moisture resistance can go a long way in preventing the PCBs hitting the line right-off-the-bat with minor oxidation already started. This too is included in the 4553.... You also mentioned silver thickness, and I have found more favorable results utilizing the "thick" designation, not the "thin", both of which are allowed in 4553.... -----Original Message----- From: David D. Hillman [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 11:20 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Lead-free soldering on ImAg Hi Ioan! I have conducted a number of leadfree soldering investigations with SAC405 and SAC305 solder paste using Immersion silver pwbs in accordance with the IPC-4553 specification and have had no issues. The higher leadfree processing temperatures tend to degrade all printed wiring board surface finishes a bit faster than in tin/lead processing. I recommend you investigate to see if the Immersion silver meets the IPC 4553 requirements. Dave Hillman Rockwell Collins [log in to unmask] Ioan Tempea <[log in to unmask]> Sent by: TechNet <[log in to unmask]> 02/15/2010 10:06 AM Please respond to TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Please respond to Ioan Tempea <[log in to unmask]> To [log in to unmask] cc Subject [TN] Lead-free soldering on ImAg Dear Technos, I know the ImAg has been discussed over and over and with the same results, very good and reliable finish. My little something now is all the proponents were mainly in high-rel applications (so SnPb solder most likely) and I do not remember if RoHS on Ag was discussed. I know it wouldn't make sense for this finish not to work with SAC305 pastes, but I just want to make sure. We have, guess what, wetting issues on two different boards, from the same supplier. We have tried playing with the reflow recipe, no improvement. The batch finished, but now we are attacking a few more different models from the same PCB fab. So, did anybody have issues with ImAg because they were on lead-free? Any particular parameters that are not a happy ingredient, like specific types of paste, specific solder recipe milestones? If it were the PCBs, what could be wrong except for the Ag thickness? I mean XRF analysis would be cheaper than x-sectioning... Thanks, Ioan Tempea, ing. Ingénieur Principal de Fabrication / Senior Manufacturing Engineer T | 450.967.7100 ext.244 E | [log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> W | www.digico.cc <http://www.digico.cc/> N'imprimer que si nécessaire - Print only if you must ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ***This email, its content, and any files transmitted with it, are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may be legally privileged and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by return and delete the material from any computer. Any review, retransmission, dissemination, or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. Messages sent via this medium may be subjected to delays, non-delivery, and unauthorized alteration. This email has been prepared using information believed by the author to be reliable and accurate, but Indium Corporation makes no warranty as to accuracy or completeness. Indium Corporation does not accept responsibility for changes made to this email after is was sent. Any opinions or recommendations expressed herein are solely those of the author. They may be subject to change without notice.*** ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- This e-mail and any attachment is confidential and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by returning this e-mail. Neways Electronics NV is not responsible for the improper or incomplete transmission of any e-mail, or for any delay in its receipt. This e-mail and any attachment is confidential and may be legally privileged or otherwise protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by returning this e-mail. Neways Electronics NV is not responsible for the improper or incomplete transmission of any e-mail, or for any delay in its receipt. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please contact helpdesk at x2960 or [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________