Vladimir, Indeed you sent me that ATOTECH paper, but I have several references that disagree with their definition, as well as others that agree with the Atotech paper. There seem to be (at least) 2 different 'defects' at work—one with hyper-galvanic corrosion of the Ni during Au-plating causing soldering problems, and another causing brittle separation due to a weakened interface cause by too much P. Are we in agreement on this? I do not really care what you call either of them—clearly the root cause is different in these cases and so is what needs to be done. Clearly, what we need is for the IPC to form a committee to provide proper definitions and 'names.' Werner -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 11:23 pm Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue Werner, We've been through it several times already. As far as I know, BP was defined as a case of poor Ni-P plating with cavitation present in the layer. I think I sent you an old ATOTECH paper on the topic a while ago. Regards, Vladimir SENTEC 11 Canadian Road, Unit 7. Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1 Tel: (416) 899-1882 Fax: (905) 882-8812 www.sentec.ca -----Original Message----- From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:57:21 To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue Hi Vladimir, Then we are not communicating. Please explain to me what YOU mean by 'BP failure'. When I say 'BP failure', I mean it is because too much P between the Ni and the IMC layers has weakened the bond leading to brittle separation on sufficient loading. I do not differentiate as to the cause(s) for too much P. For me they describe a damage mechanism. You can similar appearance with too much and too little P. Werner -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] To: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]>; [log in to unmask] Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:44 pm Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue Werner, You just confirmed what I said in my previous e-mail. You customer got failure with black appeared pads, but it wasn't BP failure. Similar appearance doesn't mean the same mechanism. Regards, Vladimir SENTEC 11 Canadian Road, Unit 7. Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1 Tel: (416) 899-1882 Fax: (905) 882-8812 www.sentec.ca From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:16:40 -0400 To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue Hi Vladimir, I have one client who experienced 'Black Pad' after 9(!) soldering operations. The P-content got progressively worse; it peaked with the EDS spikes for P being as high as those for Sn. Werner -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] To: TechNet E-Mail Forum <[log in to unmask]>; Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 10:07 pm Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue Werner, With all due respect, I don't think you are right. Regards, Vladimir SENTEC 11 Canadian Road, Unit 7. Scarborough, ON M1R 5G1 Tel: (416) 899-1882 Fax: (905) 882-8812 www.sentec.ca -----Original Message----- From: Werner Engelmaier <[log in to unmask]> Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:01:35 To: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue Hi George, \While what you say in the first paragraph is correct, the second paragraph is not. 'Black Pad' is not an all-or-nothing proposition. The seeds are sown at the Ni-plating (not the Au-plating) with the P-codeposition. However, multiple or lengthy expositions to high soldering temperatures result in more Ni being dissolved to form IMCs leaving ever more P behind. This can create 'Black Pad' where none existed before. Werner -----Original Message----- From: George Milad <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 9:52 pm Subject: Re: [TN] ENIG Issue As always as soon as there is a solderability issue with ENIG, "Black pad" comes up. This is a problem because it does not allow for further investigation. Everyone accepts since this is ENIG then it must be black pad. If this was a black pad issue the back side should have exhibited the same problem. BP occurs during the plating of the gold on top of the Ni. BP cannot differentiate one side from the other. Do not accept BP as the answer and keep investigating. Regards George Milad George Milad National Accounts Manager for Technology Uyemura International Corp (UIC) 249 Town Line Rd Southington CT 06489 [log in to unmask] Cell: (516) 901 3874 --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------