. Thanks for your note and thoughts, LiYi I was in Bejing in 1998 and very much enjoyed my visit. I was impressed by how modern things were at the time. I studied the Chinese language in high school 40 plus years ago and enjoy the language very much though I am not very good. I need more practice. I have a written a book on flex circuit technology which was published in the Chinese language and is available for free download. I have been told it has proven popular with many Chinese PCB engineers. Thanks again. Best wishes, Joe In a message dated 10/19/2009 2:03:41 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Agree. China has the same situations as Russia. I've heard of two situations foreigner will think China. 1. A closed area, every folks familiar with Kongfu, dressed like the Qing-dynasty with long pigtail. 2. Young folks in gray dresses with red sleeve emblem, yelling around with big slogans who will crash everything before them, just as the insistutional revolution 30 years ago. The movies and the limited books result to these problems consider no political intensions. I like India from the movies especially the dancing party, I know Indians are very smart from the software development area. Slums? Go away! Welcome to China :) LiYi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Fjelstad" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [TN] NTC: Russia Hi Inge, Your experience mirrors mine from when I lived and worked outside Moscow for a couple of years in the 1991-1993 time frame. Many of the scientists and engineers I worked with could read and write English but were not comfortable speaking English. Still, they were also very eager to learn by reading and people seemed to devour books. I had a physicist neighbor who learned Polish so that he could read a book banned in the Soviet Union that was available in Poland as Poland was leaving the communist block. He was not alone in this regard. Today, I suspect that reading has tailed off and television and other media content has increased. I think I had 2 and a half channels, one of which was classical music and dance and the other mostly nature programming with some cartoon content for children. Books were sold and resold everywhere in stores, on the streets and in the metro and dog-eared hand written manuscripts of forbidden content were not uncommon. I suspect that much of the book reading that I used to see on the metro has been replaced by IPods. So it goes... Things are always in flux some of the better and some for the worse but change is constant. Best, Joe In a message dated 10/17/2009 1:51:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Hi Werner, did you try harder? I learned, that they read lots of english (because of the dominating english on Internet), but they don't dare speak when meeting real americans or english ditto. I got ill for one day, and had to see a doctor. The guide translated from english to russian. I said some words in english to the doctor, but she just looked at me and shook her head. Later, when I passed her room, she was speaking with another doctor..in english I knocked the door and said 'what? Can you speak english after all?' - 'Of course I can, but my pronounciation is so bad. But I can read all american scientific literature, no problems.' I think it was something like with your engineeers. Thanks for the travel report, I will enjoy it tomorrow. Travel report! You are very ambigous! Inge ----- Original Message ----- From: <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [TN] NTC: Russia Hi Inge, Interesting. I was in Moscow a year ago, and with the exception of the Red Square area, what we found pretty much agreed with your initial expectations—I am sorry to say. Of the 65 engineers I lectured to, a grand total of 5 spoke passable English. No evidence of anything but Cyrillic signs everywhere, including the Moscow airport. Attached you find my travelog from that trip. Werner -----Original Message----- From: Inge <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: [TN] NTC: Russia Hi all, am back after a couple of weeks by boat all along Volga river. Visited many places, from small villages to Moskow. Remarkable how brainwashed and indoctrinated I've been despite TV programs, books, films etc. I still thought that mobile phones wouldn't work everywhere, expected rusty Ladas, slammering trams, flimmering TVs, a KBG man following me when taking photos near a military missile area, greyish and wrecky houses, shops with more or less empty desks, 25 year old passenger aircrafts, rusty railway trains, stinking diesel trains, suspicioius people when shooting around with my digi cameras etc. What a wrong image I had in my head. All quite opposite. Mobile worked everywhere, even hundreds of kilometers from nearest community (masts everywhere), more new cars than what I have seen anywhere else, super modern trains, that you will not find anywhere in the US, latest flatscreen TVs, noone interested in my sneeking around, I could walk straight into KGBs headquarter if I wanted, the defense ministery had no fences around the huge building, I walked with camera lifted just outside the President's office building (the guardsmen took no notice) , modern diesel engines, advertisments of a size I've never seen before, e.g. a 10,000 sq meter announcement for Mercedes Benz. More moderna cash machines than what we have, everything computerized. American music everywhere, english menues, english announcements, american cars,....I thought sometimes that I was in the US, but this was many a times much better (sorry to say so, but that's what I thought). No forgotten ghettos like in New Your or Paris or Liverpool, no people hanging around doing nothing. No overweighted people. Everywhere a rumbling of building machines, caterpillars and cranes. Building, repairing everywhere. Of course, I didn't see whole Russia, but 2,400 kilometers along Volga gives at least a good glimpse. So, I had to readjust my idea about that country. Furthermore, maybe a very wrong statement from my view, but I dare say : America, look up...not far from here Russia will pass you (I don't speak of military power, which I have nada insight in, but welfare. This doesn't change my attitude to America, which I like very much, but America got a competitor on my inside. Nevertheless, noone will care about what I think or say, I'm just 1 / 6 000 000 000 of the total. Inge --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- In a message dated 10/19/2009 2:04:15 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Agree. China has the same situations as Russia. I've heard of two situations foreigner will think China. 1. A closed area, every folks familiar with Kongfu, dressed like the Qing-dynasty with long pigtail. 2. Young folks in gray dresses with red sleeve emblem, yelling around with big slogans who will crash everything before them, just as the insistutional revolution 30 years ago. The movies and the limited books result to these problems consider no political intensions. I like India from the movies especially the dancing party, I know Indians are very smart from the software development area. Slums? Go away! Welcome to China :) LiYi ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Fjelstad" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Monday, October 19, 2009 4:05 AM Subject: Re: [TN] NTC: Russia Hi Inge, Your experience mirrors mine from when I lived and worked outside Moscow for a couple of years in the 1991-1993 time frame. Many of the scientists and engineers I worked with could read and write English but were not comfortable speaking English. Still, they were also very eager to learn by reading and people seemed to devour books. I had a physicist neighbor who learned Polish so that he could read a book banned in the Soviet Union that was available in Poland as Poland was leaving the communist block. He was not alone in this regard. Today, I suspect that reading has tailed off and television and other media content has increased. I think I had 2 and a half channels, one of which was classical music and dance and the other mostly nature programming with some cartoon content for children. Books were sold and resold everywhere in stores, on the streets and in the metro and dog-eared hand written manuscripts of forbidden content were not uncommon. I suspect that much of the book reading that I used to see on the metro has been replaced by IPods. So it goes... Things are always in flux some of the better and some for the worse but change is constant. Best, Joe In a message dated 10/17/2009 1:51:30 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, [log in to unmask] writes: Hi Werner, did you try harder? I learned, that they read lots of english (because of the dominating english on Internet), but they don't dare speak when meeting real americans or english ditto. I got ill for one day, and had to see a doctor. The guide translated from english to russian. I said some words in english to the doctor, but she just looked at me and shook her head. Later, when I passed her room, she was speaking with another doctor..in english I knocked the door and said 'what? Can you speak english after all?' - 'Of course I can, but my pronounciation is so bad. But I can read all american scientific literature, no problems.' I think it was something like with your engineeers. Thanks for the travel report, I will enjoy it tomorrow. Travel report! You are very ambigous! Inge ----- Original Message ----- From: <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]>; <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:38 PM Subject: Re: [TN] NTC: Russia Hi Inge, Interesting. I was in Moscow a year ago, and with the exception of the Red Square area, what we found pretty much agreed with your initial expectations—I am sorry to say. Of the 65 engineers I lectured to, a grand total of 5 spoke passable English. No evidence of anything but Cyrillic signs everywhere, including the Moscow airport. Attached you find my travelog from that trip. Werner -----Original Message----- From: Inge <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Sat, Oct 17, 2009 3:22 pm Subject: [TN] NTC: Russia Hi all, am back after a couple of weeks by boat all along Volga river. Visited many places, from small villages to Moskow. Remarkable how brainwashed and indoctrinated I've been despite TV programs, books, films etc. I still thought that mobile phones wouldn't work everywhere, expected rusty Ladas, slammering trams, flimmering TVs, a KBG man following me when taking photos near a military missile area, greyish and wrecky houses, shops with more or less empty desks, 25 year old passenger aircrafts, rusty railway trains, stinking diesel trains, suspicioius people when shooting around with my digi cameras etc. What a wrong image I had in my head. All quite opposite. Mobile worked everywhere, even hundreds of kilometers from nearest community (masts everywhere), more new cars than what I have seen anywhere else, super modern trains, that you will not find anywhere in the US, latest flatscreen TVs, noone interested in my sneeking around, I could walk straight into KGBs headquarter if I wanted, the defense ministery had no fences around the huge building, I walked with camera lifted just outside the President's office building (the guardsmen took no notice) , modern diesel engines, advertisments of a size I've never seen before, e.g. a 10,000 sq meter announcement for Mercedes Benz. More moderna cash machines than what we have, everything computerized. American music everywhere, english menues, english announcements, american cars,....I thought sometimes that I was in the US, but this was many a times much better (sorry to say so, but that's what I thought). No forgotten ghettos like in New Your or Paris or Liverpool, no people hanging around doing nothing. No overweighted people. Everywhere a rumbling of building machines, caterpillars and cranes. Building, repairing everywhere. Of course, I didn't see whole Russia, but 2,400 kilometers along Volga gives at least a good glimpse. So, I had to readjust my idea about that country. Furthermore, maybe a very wrong statement from my view, but I dare say : America, look up...not far from here Russia will pass you (I don't speak of military power, which I have nada insight in, but welfare. This doesn't change my attitude to America, which I like very much, but America got a competitor on my inside. Nevertheless, noone will care about what I think or say, I'm just 1 / 6 000 000 000 of the total. Inge --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------