...and at Grumman it was "Engineer for worst case loading then double it" and don't forget to pass final design through the Ugly Dept on the way out. At 09:41 AM 6/4/2009, Joe Fjelstad wrote: >You are right Brian. At Boeing, the attitude was "belt, suspenders and >'hero rope' to keep one's pant's on". This was 30 years ago but I don't think >much has changed beyond the internationalization already mentioned. > >Joe > > >In a message dated 6/4/2009 6:38:44 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, >[log in to unmask] writes: > >What is sure is that both makers have critical avionics with at least 2 >x redundancy, often 3 x, usually from different suppliers or batches. > >Brian > >Reuven Rokah wrote: > > Hi Werner, > > I hope Airbus will clarify this issue (LF in their electrical systems). > > As far as I know from a technical presentation of Airbus I have seen >(April 2004), the transition date was 2006. > > Is it include this airplane? I don't know. > > > > Reuven > > Think green before printing this mail... Thanks > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier /* > > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:47 PM > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > > > > I doubt very much that any aircraft has Pb-free solder joints at this >pointand any speeculation about Flight 447 at this point is not warranted. > > There are however, other considerations. > > Boeing aircraft are not totally by (electrical) wire, but have back-up >hydraulic systems and pop-out emergency turbines that generate electricity >from the airplane velocity to operate the hydraulics [I do not know if that >applies to all Boeing aircraft, and whether or not Airbuses have something >similarbut Airbuses do not have hydraulicc systems]. > > So, I do in fact choose my airline, to some degree at least, on the >planes they fly. > > Werner > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Joyce Koo <[log in to unmask]> > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Sent: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 8:24 am > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Agree with IngeMar! With my recent trip involved 2 problem aircrafts; >one > > electrical wire fail, and the other with engin problem(same model of >aircraft), > > I would like to know a bit more. With technet resourceful background in >high > > rel asy, discussion could be beneficial to prevent future failure. Not >say I > > can hand pick my aircraft upon travel, but picking an airline might be >in the > > consideration for me in my future travel. > > -------------------------- > > Sent using BlackBerry > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: TechNet <[log in to unmask]> > > To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> > > Sent: Thu Jun 04 06:06:05 2009 > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > > > > For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian. > > I think > > calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little hard. Those who > > really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra money, >while the > > TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I can't see bad guys > behind > > the messages that have passed, but professionel and serious engineers, >who try > > to learn and understand from this sad event. If the correspondens stays >within > > etics and good manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out >like > > that. > > Sorry for having another opinion.. > > /Inge > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis > > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15 > > To: [log in to unmask] > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > > > > I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this tragic > > accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of events. > > and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few years > ago, > > before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both Boeing and >Airbus about > > lead-free reliability. I was informed that they had a common study group >and > > that much of the avionics used was common to both makers. My >interlocutors were > > the Boeing Director of Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of > > International SHEA > > > > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be >wiser to > > stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but SCUTTLEBUTT and >GOSSIP. > > > > Brian > > > > Ken Bloomquist wrote: > >> Hi Genny, > >> > >> I just read this from the weather site that was ment > > ioned earlier: > >> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some enlightening > >> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some >theories on > >> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS >compliant. > >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not give >me a > >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it for a >D90. > >> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane > >> Be well! > >> Jim H--- > >> > >> The web site where I got this was > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ > >> > >> KennyB > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test > >> > >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it and > >> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that > >> link. > >> > >> > >> Genny > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory > >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM > >> To: [log in to unmask] > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test > >> > >> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying to > >> post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting > >> kicked back with this: > >> > >> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. > >> > >> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash > >> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM > >> > >> The following recipien > > t(s) could not be reached: > >> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM > >> There was a SMTP communication problem with the > >> recipient's email server. Please contact your system administrator. > >> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by policy.> > >> > >> > >> Let's see if I can post it in this reply... > >> > >> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, it > >> raises some real questions about what happened. > >> > >> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident > >> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been > >> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have > >> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents involving > >> failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) on A320's, > >> other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart controlled > >> flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that I was reading: > >> > >> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message from > >> the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the failure of > >> multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well as Military > >> Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, Africa, Portugal, > >> Spain and France have been alerted and attempted to contact the > >> airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using civil > >> and military radars from both west and east coasts20(including France) > >> of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane entered service > >> in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. The captain had 11700 > >> flight hours, one of the first officers had 3000, the other 6600 flight > hours. > >> > >> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did not > >> only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of cabin > >> pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who also stated, > >> that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 W30.3744 in > >> that message. > >> > >> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, that > >> the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at 02:10Z > >> indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by wire > >> system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z a > >> flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at 02:13Z > >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message > >> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That sequence > >> of messages could not be independently verified." > >> > >> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his > >> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the > >> crash: > >> > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ > >> > >> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the comments. > >> > >> > >> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in 2004: > >> > >> > >> "The sky was=2 > > 0the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from > >> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for military > >> and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on lead. > >> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing > >> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the radar. > >> > >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying > >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU hit >list. > >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus > >> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment > >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the > >> associated planning are applicable." > >> > >> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its equipment > >> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and > >> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement clearly > >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its > >> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, wrote > >> Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an exchange and a > >> follow up of your process and the possible corrective actions to >mitigate the > > risks." > >> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for > >> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October > >> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a slide > >> listing environmental requirements for Airbus' supplier > > s included this > >> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment, > >> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding waste > >> at the end of life of the delivered product including packaging, > >> unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to throw out a > >> plane? It's not as easy as it looks.) > >> > >> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its > >> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead, > >> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or > >> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the RoHS > > Directive. > >> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time until > >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes follow. > >> > >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts rain, > >> too?" > >> > >> > >> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with > >> lead-free avionics? > >> > >> Steve > >> > >> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into aviation, > >> you'll like it. > >> > >> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To > >> unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > >> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt > >> or > >> (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET > >> Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To rece > > ive ONE mailing per day of all the > >> posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the > >> archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please > >> visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > >> for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > >> [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > >> ----------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To > >> unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > >> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt > >> or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > >> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing > >> per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > >> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > >> Search the archives of previous posts at: > >> http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site > >> http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > >> for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > >> [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > >> ----------------------------------------------------- > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To > >> unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > >> the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt > >> or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET > >> Technet NOMAIL or (MAI > > L) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the > >> posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the > >> archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please > >> visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > >> for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > >> [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > >> ----------------------------------------------------- > >> > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To > > unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY > > (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or >(re-start) > > delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL >or > > (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous >posts at: > > http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site >http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > > for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] >or > > 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts > > : send e-mail to > > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > > Search the archives of previous posts at: >http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > > Please visit IPC web site >http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for > > additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > > 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This transmission (including any attachments) may contain confidential > > information, privileged material (including material protected by the > > solicitor-client or other applicable privileges), or constitute >non-public > > information. 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