Hey Dwight, Here's a video clip of a cross-breed between a Hawkeye and an a Orion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqCtrB_FZvE Who would've thunk? Steve -----Original Message----- From: Dwight Mattix [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 3:48 PM To: Steve Gregory Cc: [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: [TN] Flight 447 I remember singing cadence while double timing around Pensacola (NACCS circa Jan/Feb '84), "I wanna be a P3 sailor. I wanna fly across the sea. I wanna be a P3 sailor. Flightdeck ain't no place for me" To late for me by then. I already had orders before I even left Millington to the VAW RAG in Norfolk for E2C-IFT syllabus. Of course there were other memorable marching cadences but this is a family forum so they're best left untold. /heh At 01:24 PM 6/4/2009, you wrote: >HAR, HAR, HAR!! > >Say all ya' want, but I gotta say this about flying P-3's, 15-years and >no BOAT TIME! (GRIN) >No tailhook on that puppy! > >also a recovering sailor > >Ex-AMS1 8251 Instructor >IBNFE (International Brotherhood of Naval Flight Engineers) > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Dwight Mattix [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:35 PM >To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Steve Gregory; [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > >At 05:16 AM 6/4/2009, Steve Gregory wrote: > >Since I was the one who started all this, I want to try to explain > >myself. > > > >As I said, I flew for 12-years on P-3's while in the Navy, > >Oh P-3's! Sorry, I thought you were in Naval Air. > >/snark/snicker :-) > >a recovering sailor, >dw > >AT1, EAWS, NAC, E2-C IFT > > > > so I follow > >any aircraft mishap with interest to try and understand why things may > >have happened. I belong to another forum (http://www.centerseat.net/) > >consisting of current and former P-3 flight engineers because I like to > > >stay connected with former shipmates and to something that was a big > >part of my life. > > > >I do have questions about the reliability of lead-free electronics as > >do many on this forum, as evidenced by the numerous discussions about > >this topic in the past. > > > >You are absolutely right Brian, I don't know the cause. But I somewhat > >disagree with you about not discussing it, or having honest questions > >about what may have happened. I figured that I would just ask the > >question, because there are those on this list who I consider the > >worlds experts on whether lead-free soldering should be used in > >aircraft electronics. Especially in systems that depend on those > >electronics to keep the plane in the air. > > > >I started out my previous post by saying how tragic this was, and my > >thoughts and prayers are with everybody that suffered a loss from this. > > > >But I was just asking an honest question... > > > >Sorry if I offended anyone. > > > >Steve > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis > >Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 5:55 AM > >To: [log in to unmask] > >Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > > > >Sorry, but I stand by what I said. Speculation about whiskers, > >lead-free or weather (or anything else) being the cause is just that, > >speculation, not serious engineering or science. As for statements > >comparing Airbus safety with Boeing, they have very similar records, so > > >that it is irresponsible to imply otherwise. Neither you nor I know > >what happened and I firmly believe that neither we nor journalists of > >any class of media are in any position to discuss it until (if ever) > >we have more positive and reliable information. Let's not forget the > >228 persons on board and not disgrace their memory by futile >speculation. > > > >Brian > > > >Hernefjord Ingemar wrote: > > > For the first time, I don't agree fully with you, Brian. > > > I think calling the discussion SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP is little >hard. > >Those who really do that are journalists (not all)who make little extra > > >money, while the TN guys who were discussing are quite the opposite. I > >can't see bad guys behind the messages that have passed, but > >professionel and serious engineers, who try to learn and understand > >from this sad event. If the correspondens stays within etics and good > >manner, I can't see why these guys had to be knocked out like that. > > > Sorry for having another opinion.. > > > /Inge > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis > > > Sent: torsdag 4 juni 2009 09:15 > > > To: [log in to unmask] > > > Subject: Re: [TN] Flight 447 > > > > > > I think it ill-becomes any of us to speculate on the cause of this > >tragic accident or to follow the equally speculative sequence of >events. > > > > > and especially the implication of it being a European plane. A few > > > years ago, before I retired, I was in contact with experts in both > > > Boeing and Airbus about lead-free reliability. I was informed that > > > they had a common study group and that much of the avionics used was > > > > common to both makers. My interlocutors were the Boeing Director of > > > Environmental Affairs and Senior Scientist of International SHEA > > > > > > Until (if ever) we have facts about this accident, IMHO, we would be > >wiser to stop the speculation which really amounts to nothing but > >SCUTTLEBUTT and GOSSIP. > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > Ken Bloomquist wrote: > > >> Hi Genny, > > >> > > >> I just read this from the weather site that was mentioned earlier: > > >> > > >> Hello Tim, Check out "tin whiskers" in Google Some enlightening > > >> information there My cousin works for BAE Systems, and has some > >theories on > > >> this& His words, "The first aircraft to be 100% completely ROHS > >compliant. > > >> (NO LEAD in the solder.) I said it 5 years back.. They could not > > >> give > >me a > > >> book of unlimited flight coupons on this craft... I'd swap it for >a > >D90. > > >> :) http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/brazil_plane > > >> Be well! > > >> Jim H--- > > >> > > >> The web site where I got this was > > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ > > >> > > >> KennyB > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Genny Gibbard [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:44 AM > > >> To: [log in to unmask] > > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test > > >> > > >> So was the Airbus 330 leadfree or not? I was trying to google it > > >> and > > > > >> wasn't finding any info on that, other than the one comment on that > > > >> link. > > >> > > >> > > >> Genny > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory > > >> Sent: June 3, 2009 10:02 AM > > >> To: [log in to unmask] > > >> Subject: Re: [TN] Test > > >> > > >> Everyone passed (GRIN). Why I did the test was because I was trying > > > >> to post a message about the AF447 crash and my message kept getting > > > >> kicked back with this: > > >> > > >> Your message did not reach some or all of the intended recipients. > > >> > > >> Subject: [TN] Off-topic Discussion; AF447 Crash > > >> Sent: 6/3/2009 10:12 AM > > >> > > >> The following recipient(s) could not be reached: > > >> > > >> [log in to unmask] on 6/3/2009 10:12 AM > > >> There was a SMTP communication problem with the > > >> recipient's email server. Please contact your system >administrator. > > >> <OWA.OAIELECTRONICS.COM #5.5.0 smtp;550 Denied by > > >> policy.> > > >> > > >> > > >> Let's see if I can post it in this reply... > > >> > > >> While it may never be known what caused the tragic crash of AF447, > > >> it > > > > >> raises some real questions about what happened. > > >> > > >> Having flown for over 12-years while in the Navy, any big accident > > >> attracts my attention because of my interest in aviation. I've been > > > >> following this event quite closely to try and learn what might have > > > >> happened, and learned that there have been several incidents > > >> involving failures of the ADIRU (Air Data Inertial Reference Unit) > > >> on > > > > >> A320's, other A330's, and 777's that caused the aircraft to depart > > >> controlled flight. Below is from a link about the AF447 crash that > > >> I > >was reading: > > >> > > >> "Air France reported, that they had received an automatic message > > >> from the airplane reporting an electrical short circuit and the > > >> failure of multiple systems at 02:14Z. Air Traffic Control as well > > >> as > > > > >> Military Stations along the Atlantic coast of South America, > > >> Africa, Portugal, Spain and France have been alerted and attempted > > >> to contact > > > > >> the airplane without success. Attempts to locate the airplane using > > > >> civil and military radars from both west and east coasts (including > > >> France) of the Atlantic also proved unsuccessful. The airplane > > >> entered service in 2005 and had accumulated 18870 flights hours. > > >> The captain had 11700 flight hours, one of the first officers had > > >> 3000, > >the other 6600 flight hours. > > >> > > >> Sources within Air France reported, that the automatic message did > > >> not only report an electrical short circuit, but also the loss of > > >> cabin pressure. This information has been confirmed by FAB, who > > >> also stated, that the position of the airplane was given as N3.5777 > > >> W30.3744 in that message. > > >> > > >> New information provided by sources within Air France suggests, > > >> that the ACARS messages of system failures started to arrive at > > >> 02:10Z indicating, that the autopilot had disengaged and the fly by > > > >> wire system had changed to alternate law. Between 02:11Z and 02:13Z > > > >> a flurry of messages regarding ADIRU and ISIS faults arrived, at > > >> 02:13Z > > > > >> PRIM 1 and SEC 1 faults were indicated, at 02:14Z the last message > > >> received was an advisory regarding cabin vertical speed. That > > >> sequence of messages could not be independently verified." > > >> > > >> Then I was reading the comments this gentleman received after his > > >> meteorogical analysis of the weather conditions at the time of the > > >> crash: > > >> > > >> http://www.weathergraphics.com/tim/af447/ > > >> > > >> and up popped the topic of lead-free. You'll see that in the > >comments. > > >> > > >> > > >> Then I found this from an article that Mike Buetow wrote back in > >2004: > > >> > > >> > > >> "The sky was the limit for lead-free, literally. Declarations from > > >> Europe and elsewhere led us to believe that electronics for > > >> military and aerospace applications would be exempt from bans on >lead. > > >> Suppliers to companies in those sectors were flying high, believing > > > >> that under the EU directives (WEEE and RoHS) they were off the >radar. > > >> > > >> None of that is stopping Airbus from taking a closer look, querying > > > >> its suppliers on their use of lead and other materials on the EU > > >> hit > >list. > > >> In a Jan. 9 letter, a copy of which was obtained by PCD&M, Airbus > > >> France director of procurement quality and supply chain equipment > > >> Jean-Philippe Bedos explained: "For Airbus, both directives and the > > > >> associated planning are applicable." > > >> > > >> By contract, the European airplane consortium prohibits its > > >> equipment > > > > >> suppliers from using materials "forbidden by national and > > >> international regulations, or likely to be...." The statement > > >> clearly > > > > >> implies WEEE and RoHS. With that in mind, Airbus submitted to its > > >> suppliers a 46-question form asking about lead use. Responses, > > >> wrote Bedos, will be analyzed by Airbus and "will initiate an > > >> exchange and a follow up of your process and the possible > > >> corrective actions to > >mitigate the risks." > > >> > > >> That's not all. The consortium is also putting the onus for > > >> end-of-life disposal squarely on its suppliers. In an October > > >> presentation by Airbus UK's environmental affairs coordinator, a > > >> slide listing environmental requirements for Airbus' suppliers > > >> included this > > >> statement: "In particular for electrical and electronic equipment, > > >> supplier responsibility for the elimination of the corresponding > > >> waste at the end of life of the delivered product including > > >> packaging, unless otherwise agreed with Airbus." (Ever tried to > > >> throw > > > > >> out a plane? It's not as easy as it looks.) > > >> > > >> For products delivered after July 1, 2006, Airbus is mandating its > > >> suppliers attest in writing that their products contain no lead, > > >> cadmium or other substances (including polybrominated biphenyls, or > > > >> PBBs; and polybrominated dephenyl ethers, or PBDEs) banned per the > >RoHS Directive. > > >> And if Airbus succumbs, it says here it's only a matter of time > > >> until > > > > >> Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman and the other primes > >follow. > > >> > > >> ...For now, confusion reigns. Will it end before airplane parts > > >> rain, > > > > >> too?" > > >> > > >> > > >> So, it begs the question; COULD this have something to do with > > >> lead-free avionics? > > >> > > >> Steve > > >> > > >> P.S. During my searches, I ran across this. If you're into > > >> aviation, you'll like it. > > >> > > >> http://www.gillesvidal.com/blogpano/cockpit1.htm > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > > >> Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > > >> To > > > > >> unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text > > > >> in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily > > > >> halt or > > >> (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET > > > >> Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the > > >> posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search > > >> the > > > > >> archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > > >> Please visit IPC web site > > >> http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > > >> for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > > >> [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > > >> ----------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- > > >> Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > > >> To > > > > >> unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text > > > >> in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily > > > >> halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > > >> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE > > >> mailing > > > > >> per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > > >> [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of > > >> previous posts at: > > >> http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site > > >> http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > > >> for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > > >> [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > > >> ----------------------------------------------------- > > >> > > >> 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provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following > > > text in > > > > > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily > > > halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > > > [log in to unmask]: SET > > > > > Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the > > > posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search > > > the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > > > Please > > > > > visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > > > for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at > > > [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > > > ----------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------- > > > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 > > > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with 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>Search the archives of previous posts at: > >http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site > >http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional > >information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > >847-615-7100 ext.2815 > >----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log 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