Well, Eric, not quit [see my e-mail just after yours] Werner -----Original Message----- From: Honsowetz, Eric <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 10:02 am Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder? Not to burst anyone's illusions but the Japanese use the same suppliers and the same processes and the same requirements as the Americans. Best Regards, eric 248-447-1038 (desk) 734-223-5599 (cell) -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lee parker Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 8:26 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder? I suppose this is one of the reasons that many years ago I began buying Japanese automobiles and never looked back! Best regards Lee JLP Consultants LLC 804 779 3389 ----- Original Message ----- From: Werner Engelmaier /*<mailto:[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 8:33 PM Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder? Hi Lee, The 4+ million recall was forced by NHTSA-what happened was that the windshield wipers stopped working---sometimes in less than one year. In terms of technical documentation; I use it as a case study in my 'Root Cause Analysis' workshop. No preproduction certification that I know of; and if they did they obviously did not know what they were doing---but that, of course, is not unique to GM. Werner -----Original Message----- From: Lee parker <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 8:21 pm Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder? Werner Has this GM issue been documented anywhere. Also, I am wondering why the laminate manufactures have not responded to this inquiry. I have worked with many customers who have had CEM-1 boards built in Asia and I am not aware of any adverse effects although none were automotive. Generally, we were careful to be sure that the material was compatible with the specified environment. Was any preproduction certification performed in the case you mentioned below? Best regards Lee JLP Consultants LLC 804 779 3389 ----- Original Message ----- From: Werner Engelmaier /*<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]:T [log in to unmask]>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder? Hi Eric, IPC has quality Classes 1 through 3; CEM-1 with unsupported holes is Class -1. This is the same material /design combination that resulted in GM having to recall over 4 million SUVs and trucks. CEM-1 not only has a high CTE, but also is hygroscopic and swells significantly when absorbing moisture-bad combination for Pb-free T's and automotive application. Werner -----Original Message----- From: Honsowetz, Eric <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask] OM%3Cmailto:[log in to unmask]>>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]:T [log in to unmask]>> Sent: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 2:59 pm Subject: [TN] Using CEM-1 in Pb-free Wave Solder? Good Afternoon Technetters; So having been googling through this question for a couple of days off an on I am turning to that one definite source of knowledge, you all... What are the ideas regarding using CEM-1 material in a Pb-free (SAC) wave soldering process for a high reliability product (Automotive - 15 year life without failure). This would be a copper on one side board with through-hole parts only. BTW googling provides the best of both worlds....people saying "yes" and others saying "no" so whatever your answer you can't be wrong. :) Best Regards, eric 248-447-1038 (desk) 734-223-5599 (cell) ********************** ** LEGAL DISCLAIMER ** ********************** This E-mail message and any attachments may contain legally privileged, confidential or proprietary information. If you are not the intended recipient(s), or the employee or agent responsible20for delivery of this message to the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this E-mail message is strictly prohibited. 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