One the subject of vias This is very precise To have coverage we suppose Is all very nice But in the event That copper concerns The end use environment Will dictate if it burns Thank you Dewey...................................... John Burke (408) 515 4992 -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE) Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:03 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Leave no pun unattended Nor critical via untented Other concerns do not diminish Be aware of any surface finish On the issue of exposure What's left is closure Now that we have covered the prose and cons of copper exposure, I agree with you that it is applicable for all final surface finishes with the exception of a properly applied minimum thickness of gold. Dewey -----Original Message----- From: Barmuta, Michael [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 10:31 AM To: Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE); TechNet E-Mail Forum Subject: RE: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Well Honey, not just a Fluke but repeatable for others. Regarding Direct Corrosion, the oxides formed on the surface of the copper form an inert non-reactive barrier that help protect it from further attack. From a Galvanic Corrosion standpoint, copper is more noble on the electromotive series than tin or tin lead and about the same as nickel. This not to say you will never have a problem with copper. However it has been my experience that if a reactant/contaminant comes in contact with a PCA and is strong enough to result in a corrosive nature it doesn't make a difference if you have copper, tin, tin/lead or nickel. Also remember if using electroplated gold over electroplated nickel over copper you are not protected from a galvanic problem. It fact it could be worse with three different metals with exposed edges all with different electromotive potentials. Just ask the guys etching gold electroplated PCB's. I understand your concerns but I don't believe the copper would be any worse than most other metals being used in PCB construction. As I said below when the copper was exposed to very corrosive mixed flowing gases we did not see any deterioration. In fact the stainless steel support system in the test chamber should more attack and corrosion than the test vehicles. Regards Michael Barmuta Staff Engineer Fluke Corp. Everett WA 425-446-6076 -----Original Message----- From: Whittaker, Dewey (EHCOE) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:40 AM To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Barmuta, Michael Subject: RE: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Are these repeatable results or just a Fluke? Thanks for the input. I agree that exposed copper itself is not a concern, but I have always been concerned of the what, where and when of potential contaminant deposition and the subsequent results when exposed to the end use environment, not to mention the processing environment during manufacture. Dewey -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Barmuta, Michael Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 8:54 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Hi Lee: Just to substantiate yours, Werners, Waynes and others comments, exposed copper is not a reliability issue. Agreed that any trapped chemistries in holes can definably be a problem but that is true even if the final finish is not copper. When OSP's were coming on the scene in the late eighties/early nineties we ran extensive testing with IBM Endicott on exposed copper boards. Included is the testing protocol was electromigration, humidity cycling and environmental exposure using MFG (mixed flowing gas). Based on the type of MFG test that is run, it can be very aggressive. The MFG test exposes the electronic assembly to controlled concentrations of corrosive gases in a chamber. This simulates X years of field service based on the number of hours of chamber time the test is run. We ran the MFG Type-H test for 420 hours which correlates to 10 years of heavy industrial environments such as pulp/paper mills, waste/water treatment plants, chemical refineries, etc. Bottom line we found no performance or reliability differences between the copper and HASL control assemblies. We've built literally millions of test and measurement instruments over the last 15-20 years as exposed copper boards. These are used in every environment imaginable all over the world. We do not see any issues with the exposed copper from our field service centers. Regards Michael Barmuta Staff Engineer\ Fluke Corp. Everett WA 425-446-6076 -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lee parker Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2007 6:41 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Copper does not corrode in the since that iron does. Copper is a near noble element that behaves more like aluminum; it forms a passivative layer that penetrates only a few microns into the material. Think of aerial copper wire (so called open wire) used by the phone companies for many years. Where I live, the aerial copper wire that was installed in the early 20s is still in place and functions as well as it did 90 years ago. Best regards Lee J. Lee Parker, Ph.D. JLP Consultants LLC 804 779 3389 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Hogg, Blair K." <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias I guess I'll have to replace all that corroded copper pipe in my house with the plastic kind.... -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Steve Gregory Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:24 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Or the Statue of Liberty... -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ian Hanna Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:26 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias That's why they build church roofs out of it I suppose... -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Kevin Glidden Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 4:20 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Is this really true? I have only been at this around 7 yrs, but everything I was ever taught says exposed Cu is not allowed for risk of corrosion. -----Original Message----- From: Wayne Thayer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2007 3:52 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias And what's wrong with exposed copper? You certainly aren't going to try and solder down there, are you? Copper does not corrode quickly, and if its going to be in a corrosive environment, you're going to have to conformal coat anyway! The silver is put on boards only to extend the solderability lifetime of the bare copper, not as a protectant to prevent opens due to corrosion. This is not a reliability issue at all. Wayne Thayer >>> [log in to unmask] 3/6/2007 12:10:08 pm >>> Hi Fran The amount of mask intruding into the hole will depend on the application method. Our curtain coat operation can cause the mask (circa 1-2 microns) to penetrate about 1/3rd into the hole from both sides but it has not affected the silver taking on the remaining surface. Is the mask too thick at the hole entrance to prevent the plating solution getting good access? You may also need to confirm by micro section what your customer thinks he is seeing. Is the mask covering all the hole surface? Hope this helps. Regards Alistair Alistair F Murray MICT Technical Manager Artetch Circuits Limited England UK Direct Dial: 01903-712931 www.artetch.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Fran Juliot Sent: 06 March 2007 15:58 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] immersion silver and exposed copper in small vias Our customer is questioning what they feel is exposed copper in 8 mil vias holes on silver boards. We feel there is mask residue in the holes which does not allow silver to take. These are holes that are allowed to be plugged. Has anyone else ran into this issue with thier customers and do you have the same look or are your small vias covered with silver all the way through the via? --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ******************************************************************* This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept for the presence of computer viruses. www.Hubbell.com - Hubbell Incorporated --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- This message (including any attachments) contains confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may constitute a violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by responding to this e-mail, and delete the message from your system. If you have any questions about this e-mail please notify the sender immediately. --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- This message (including any attachments) contains confidential and/or proprietary information intended only for the addressee. Any unauthorized disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited and may constitute a violation of law. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately by responding to this e-mail, and delete the message from your system. If you have any questions about this e-mail please notify the sender immediately. --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 15.0 To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------