One good benefit in Pb-free reflowing with nitrogen is it will assist in wetting. It will also help in some instances with voiding and Tombstoning problems. I do agree that it could be beneficial with certain applications but for the most part it is not always necessary unless you are experiencing voiding wetting or Tombstoning issues. You really have to take into account the price of such nitrogen systems. The cost of the nitrogen, the delivery of nitrogen, the nitrogen system, the maintenance involved in the system, among other costs must be compared to the benefits of using nitrogen to make sure it is really worth it. In many cases a little rework will cost much less than implementing/running a nitrogen system. Christopher Nash -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jerry Dengler Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 3:31 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Nitrogen usage In a Sn/Pb environment (no experience with nitrogen in Pb-Free) I agree with Rich. The nitrogen opens the process window but a good manufacturer can build most assemblies just as well without the added cost of nitrogen. That being said there are some designs that simply will not give good yields without nitrogen. Jerry Dengler Production Manager Pergamon Corporation -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Richard Kraszewski Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:51 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Nitrogen usage To come down on the other side of this discussion.... I'd have to say that nitrogen is not necessary in all applications. There is tendency to just through resources at the process saying that it should be better (not arguing that it actually won't help!!). Sure isn't nice and should help, but is it truly necessary in all instances? How much can it cost? To inert a high usage reflow oven for a year can easily cost you ~$50K / year. In today's world were every penny counts, it's another process parameter that needs to be closely looked at and at least optimized. Rich K / KEG -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nowland, Russell Howard (Russell) Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 2:13 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Nitrogen usage John, I am still waiting to get a quote back from them. We always used nitrogen for just about everything and our previous EMS did too. This is the first Tier 1 EMS I have worked with that did not. Russell Nowland Alcatel-Lucent Supply Base Engineer Address: 14000 Quail Spring Parkway, Suite 300 Oklahoma City, OK 73134 email: [log in to unmask] Desk: 405-302-1660 Cell: 405-203-0034 Fax: 405-302-1622 -----Original Message----- From: John Burke [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 12:35 PM To: 'TechNet E-Mail Forum'; Nowland, Russell Howard (Russell) Subject: RE: [TN] Nitrogen usage I have had this issue too. All Tier 1 - 2 CM ovens are "nitrogen capable". I actually specified Nitrogen on the build requirements when I was running manufacturing engineering at Extreme Networks and after a time it was interesting the lengths that the CM would go to on "studies" to try and persuade my upper management team that it could be switched off!!! There is some argument that can be applied to not using it, where for instance the flux is a high activity system that is subsequently water washed, but in general, the reality is, that the nitrogen reduces oxidation of the soldering system and therefore improves the probability of getting a "right first time" assembly with good probability of field reliability. What price are they talking about? The cost of the nitrogen? Or the cost of the vacuum wall piping runs to take it into the factory? I do not believe I have ever seen the specification that you refer to (although I have sometimes wished there was one!) John John Burke (408) 515 4992 -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Russ Nowland Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:07 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] Nitrogen usage Hello Technetter's, Sometimes in life you find yourself in a pickle and wonder how the heck you got there. It always brings me to that famous quote "It is hard to soar with the eagles when you work with a bunch of turkeys". I have a question: I am working with and "MAJOR" EMS that does not use nitrogen with either Sn/Pb or Pb-free reflow. In this day and age I have never heard of this. They have it available but will only use it if I require it. At a price, of course. They don't seem to take into account it will improve their yields as well. Is there an IPC, NEMI, or any other standard that requires/recommends N2 usage for either Sn/Pb or Pb-free reflow process? --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- ***This email, its content and any files transmitted with it are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may be legally privileged and/or confidential. 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