No more so that soldering a SnPb BGA with SnPb solder p Richard, No more so that soldering a SnPb BGA with SnPb solder paste. The BGA's with Pb-Free balls that we've soldered using SnPb solder paste were assembled using the component vendor reflow profiles. We've worked very closely with our strategic component suppliers and try very hard not to violate any of their assembly recommendations. It hasn't happened to us yet but if a component vendor was not willing to work with us they most likely would not be put on our strategic vendor list. Regards, George George M. Wenger Senior Principle FMA / Reliability Engineer Wireless network Solutions Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531 [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Stadem, Richard D. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 8:07 AM To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Wenger, George M. Subject: RE: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly George, If you heat up the SAC part and solder it to an assembly using 63/37 solder, is that any less of a "modification" than if you heat up the part and solder the 63/37 balls to it? -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wenger, George M. Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly I don't disagree with the points you raise e Bob, I don't disagree with the points you raise especially the point that one has to weigh all of the risks and make an informed risk assessment. If we were making tens/hundreds of products with hundred/thousand collar devices we might make the decision to pay the $25-50 national reballing price. However, when you're making thousands/ tens of thousands of products with $50-100 dollar devices the $25-50 national reballing price is not a pittance. My reference to voiding the warranty wasn't made because of the number of heat cycles a component vendor warrants it was made because most component vendors have indicated that if we modify their component in any fashion we void the warranty. I don't mean to indicate that reballing is "bad" and creates un-reliable product because if it was there won't be any companies providing reballing service. I do mean to indicate that we've done an internal risk assessment based on analysis and evaluations that indicates we can provide a quality/reliable product without the need for reballing. Regards, George George M. Wenger Andrew Corporation Wireless Network Solutions Senior Principal FMA / Reliability Engineer 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531 [Office] (732) 309-8964 [Cell] _____ From: bob wettermann [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:19 PM To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Wenger, George M. Subject: Re: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly Hi George: We are a reballing service provider. While we have been involved in internal reliability testing on specific parts we have yet to see any published papers on the topic-has anyone else seen such a study completed and reported on? In terms of the reballing being expensive it depends on the value of the device. For a several hundred/thousand dollar device the $25-50 national reballing price seems like a pittance. The situation is not even a cost issue if parts are not obtainable at any price and you have to ship finished goods. (After one has weighed all of the risks) The warranty stating no more than 3 heat cycles from most manufacturers can and has been violated by the thousands of users who have reballed parts since the advent of this package type. Again, this a risk vs cost issue. Regards Bob Wettermann By the way if anyone wants to be involved in such a study we would be happy to work with you as long as the results can be reported publicly. "Wenger, George M." <[log in to unmask]> wrote: There are three issues with re-balling BGA's: 1. It Ramon, There are three issues with re-balling BGA's: 1. It is expensive 2. You void the component manufacturers warranty 3. It is a solder repair/replacement process that requires two heating operations(removal and Replacement) The reason we do not re-ball is because of 2 & 3. Anytime you do a repair process you can introduce reliability issues and when it is compounded by losing the warranty we decided not to reball Regards, George George M. Wenger Senior Principle FMA / Reliability Engineer Wireless network Solutions Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531 [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dehoyos, Ramon Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:47 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly Hi George: " c). Do not re-ball Pb-Free area array packages with SnPb balls." Do you recommend not to reball SAC balls even if the solder paste to be used is SnPb and Pb profiles? Could you expand the matter? Thanks for your inputs. Regards, Ramon -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Braddock, Iain Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:57 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly Many thanks all for your responses, the team have come good again! I guess I wasn't far off the mark then, looks like some discussions with the Design Team are order of the day! Regards, Iain. -----Original Message----- From: Wenger, George M. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 24 November 2006 15:49 To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Braddock, Iain Subject: RE: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly Iain, You've stated correctly the dilemma companies are facing. You've comment/question about option 2 creating a reliability concern and also invalidating the manufacturers warranty is also correct. Companies are going to have to make their own risk assessments. Unfortunately, many of those decisions are not knowledge based decisions because there isn't good documented information available. The recommendations I've made internally are: 1. Use SnPb assembly whenever possible 2. Use Pb-Free components and processes when product needs to be RoHS 6/6 compliant. 3. When forced into mixed alloy assembly: a. For RoHS 6/6 product, use Pb-Free processes (245-260C) when all components are compatible with Pb-Free processes. b). For RoHS 5/6 product, use maximum SnPb process temperatures (225- 235C) whenever there are components not compatible with Pb-Free processes (i.e., don't exceed the maximum temperature the MSL was tested at by the component vendor. c). Do not re-ball Pb-Free area array packages with SnPb balls. Regards, George George M. Wenger Andrew Corporation Wireless Network Solutions Senior Principal FMA / Reliability Engineer 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531 [Office] (732) 309-8964 [Cell] -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Braddock, Iain Sent: Friday, November 24, 2006 7:43 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly This sure is an interesting dilemma! So which is the lesser of the two evils assuming you are forced into it with the Design? 1) SnPb / SAC BGA's with a temperature profile (230ish) that allows all joints to go liquidus. 2) Reball SAC BGA's with SnPb balls & use standard SnPb thermal profile. If option 2 does that not create reliability concerns also invalidate the manufacturers warranty? Regards, Iain. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Werner Engelmaier Sent: 22 November 2006 17:39 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] FW: [TN] BGA anomaly *** WARNING *** This mail has originated outside your organization, either from an external partner or the Global Internet. Keep this in mind if you answer this message. Hi Ramon, Mixing SnPb with SAC is not a very good idea--you are right. 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Any unauthorized use of this email is prohibited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ [mf2] --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- Bob Wettermann PH 847-767-5745 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. 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