Right, John. And....I didn't say we DIDN'T build them, either, did I? ;-) -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Burke Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:36 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination I know..............I am building them as we speak..............8-) John -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dwight Mattix Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:36 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination At 11:47 AM 9/13/2006, Stadem, Richard D. wrote: >I did not say GD built these types of costly boards. I simply stated >that many companies are. yes. for example, assembled chip emulators can be very expensive. start tallying up the cost of large FPGA's at upwards of $5K per device and it's easy to get an assembly value way up in 5 figure$. most recently involved with one that has 19 FPGA's per card (>1750 pins per device on 1mm pitch). cha ching! >-----Original Message----- >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Burke >Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 12:54 PM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination > >50K..........?? > >With a component BOM I hope.................... > >If it's 50K without, you might as well machine each one out of >solid...............8-) > >John > >-----Original Message----- >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franklin D Asbell >Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 10:25 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination > >Richard, > >MIL-P[RF]-55110/50884/31032 documents clearly state "no repair", of >course if these are military product built to IPC-6010 series then >repair may be performed I agree repair is allowed. > >Many OEMs such as Raytheon, LMCO, Boeing, provide PCB suppliers with >PCB Fabrication or Acceptance Specifications which state the same (no >repair, or repair with prior communication), I've reviewed many of >these and have had to comply with these requirements. > >I don't disagree that there are many OEMs which would accept this >particular repair (repaired delamination) But in my experience over the >past 10 years I've not seen one of my customers even consider >discussing repairing delaminated product, and as mentioned, today I >would not even entertain the idea of asking them. > >Did you say you're building PCB's costing $50,000.00...wow, I'm >impressed, I'm now interested in the design you're building? What >material type, layer count, features, etc. If it does not violate any >proprietary of NDA of course. > >Franklin > >-----Original Message----- >From: Stadem, Richard D. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] >Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:49 AM >To: TechNet E-Mail Forum; Franklin D Asbell >Subject: RE: [TN] Delamination > >Wrong, Franklin. > >Nearly all medical, industrial, aerospace, military, and government >agencies recognize that qualified repair processes, including for >delamination, are perfectly reliable, in most cases even more reliable >than the original undamaged hardware. There is no more risk in >performing a certified repair procedure than there is in doing standard >rework. >That is the reason MRB boards exist in large military OEMs and CEMs >such as Honeywell, Rockwell, GD, etc., etc., with documented, >qualified, and certified repair procedures, non-conforming material >segregation and handling methods, trained and certified operators and >inspectors, traceability systems, and quality departments. >Many of these companies recognize the incidential value in these >systems, including the impact of not having to delay a program, >re-order new parts, re-inspect new parts and boards, re-stock >replacement parts and boards, re-assemble replacement assemblies, re-test, etc, etc. >Simply scrapping a board because it is delaminated may be acceptable >for your product, but many programs cannot afford to scrap a single >bare pwb valued at $50,000 for example, let alone a finished assembly >valued at more than $500,000 because it has a delamination or other >repairable defect. And yes, pwbs and assemblies with those values are >becoming somewhat common in the industry today, what with the rapidly >escalating level of technology. >And in most cases, by the time you add up the cost of all of the above >replacement activity, the real hidden cost of scrap becomes a factor in >even the least costly commercial, high-volume products. > >-----Original Message----- >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Franklin D Asbell >Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:23 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination > >I'm curious what customers would actually accept repaired delaminated >product. > >I read repair procedures for delaminated conditions many years ago and >in my opinion the end result presents many reliability possibilities. > >When I see delamination, I see scrap. > >Franklin > >-----Original Message----- >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Stadem, Richard D. >Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 1:22 PM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: Re: [TN] Delamination > >Helena, I forgot to mention that many delaminations are quite >repairable. >There are repair procedures outlined in IPC-STD-7711/7721. >They are not automatic scrap. This requires MRB authority from your >customer, however. > >-----Original Message----- >From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pasquito, Helena >Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 11:45 AM >To: [log in to unmask] >Subject: [TN] Delamination > >Hi TechNetters, > >Let me ask a question; I know delamination is bad, but why? What is >the failure mode to the board when a board delaminates and would there >ever be an instance that a board that delaminates is still OK to use? >This is a Class 3 application. Yes, I know what the IPC standards say >but not real sure about the board process. Yes, I "googled" and there >is a lot of stuff out there. Maybe someone can recommend some reading >material (hopefully short and sweet and to the point). > >Thanks! >Helena > >Helena Pasquito >Manufacturing Skills Instructor >M/A-COM, Tyco Electronics >1011 Pawtucket Blvd., M/S 107 >Lowell, MA 01853 >978-442-5024 >[log in to unmask] > > >--------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To >unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt >or >(re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET >Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the >posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the >archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please >visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for >additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or >847-615-7100 >ext.2815 >----------------------------------------------------- > >--------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To >unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt >or >(re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to >[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing >per day of all the posts: send e-mail to >[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest >Search the archives of previous posts at: >http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site >http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 >for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] >or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 >----------------------------------------------------- > >--------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To >unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt >or >(re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET >Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the >posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the >archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please >visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for >additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or >847-615-7100 >ext.2815 >----------------------------------------------------- > >--------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To >unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt >or >(re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to >[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing >per day of all the posts: send e-mail to >[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest >Search the archives of previous posts at: >http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site >http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 >for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] >or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 >----------------------------------------------------- > >--------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To >unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt >or >(re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET >Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the >posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the >archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please >visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for >additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or >847-615-7100 ext.2815 >----------------------------------------------------- > >--------------------------------------------------- >Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To >unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt >or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to >[log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing >per day of all the posts: send e-mail to >[log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest >Search the archives of previous posts at: >http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site >http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 >for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] >or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 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