I totally agree with what Phil is saying. However, we cannot blame the vendors. The cost of maintaining inventory for discontinued machinery along with the cost of continuing to support older models of equipment is actually quite high. One thing that more and more savvy EMS providers are doing is purchasing used equipment for spare parts only. Because of the recent downturn in the electronics business that we never really recovered from, many CEM's (and many OEM's too, for that matter) went out and purchased large quantities of capital equipment from those companies that went under. They took a risk, in some cases a big risk, and bought good used equipment for pennies on the dollar and warehoused it all. I know of at least two EMS providers that have maintenance and engineering people working part of their time stripping down and stocking pick and place equipment, wash pumps and motors, and many other high-dollar-replacement-value parts. They are investing in the future, keeping their personnel busy, and they are benefiting from this supply of replacement parts, and they did not lose valuable highly-skilled labor during slow times. For them, the gamble paid off and is continuing to pay off. I personally took a semitrailer out and pick up millions of dollars worth of equipment for a company I used to work for. They paid less than $300,000 for good working equipment right off of the factory floor, and we calculated that the real value of the machinery was close to $18 million. I think it is certainly a good business practice to always keep one eye on the used equipment market, and purchase the good deals just for spare parts, if nothing else. One must have a good tech or engineer who knows the equipment intimately, in order to avoid buying worn equipment that is beyond use or repair. But when business allows it, it usually is a good ROI. A really good maintenance tech or engineer, who knows the machinery, and also knows where to buy the individual components direct from the vendors, is truly worth his/her weight in gold. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil Zarrow Sent: Wednesday, February 22, 2006 1:49 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Dek Printer Hi all, Steve presented an interesting situation regarding the cost of the replacement parts for his printer. Being a fellow veteran "equipment guy" he accurately points out that supporting and older machine is a bit more expensive. I looked in the situation with the front door cover strut and, apparently, as a result of time, inflation and, most importantly, lower volume purchases (since that part is no longer used in current equipment), the price has gone up. As one of my hobbies is keeping some older sports cars alive and running, I have run into this syndrome quite a bit and empathize with both sides. The Edge Clamp Foil dilemma boggled my mind. I had to look into this - inquiring minds want to know. As it turns out, one of my clients recently undertook some upgrade work to their older DEK printer. I inquired about the prices they encountered and the aforementioned clamps were $217 (where, as Steve mentioned, they were previously $184). Not too bad. However, a complete upgrade from the original system to a the quick change clamp system cost ( a year ago) $1284. That's more like it. (Again, that was a year ago, though, and I suspect the conversion costs even more now - again lower demand and volume purchased, not to mention our fragile dollar). And at least they were in stock! K Jaworenko's experience with having to wait 32 weeks for replacement parts from an equipment supplier is deplorable. Maybe I'm too altruistic, but I really don't think (and hope) that the more reputable equipment manufacturers have to resort to gouging on spares to coerce us to buy newer machines. Certainly, some seem to have their acts together better than others. Of course our experiences, both in use and support with these manufacturers will influence our next purchasing decision just as much as their specifications will and they are aware of that. But, speaking as someone who spent a lot of time on the equipment side, supporting older machines both in terms of spares and retrofits is a tough part of the business. One further suggestion when contemplating a used piece of equipment and calling the OEM's field service department and chatting with a field service tech. Besides being the guys who actually work on the machines, most field service techs are opinionated and tell it like it is - good or bad. (Sometimes they can be the "anit-salesman"). To use my automotive analogy again, if you're considering buying a used automobile, who better than a mechanic to tell you what's good and what to watch out for? Again, caveat emptor, indeed. Phil Zarrow ITM Consulting Durham, NH USA _www.ITMconsulting.org_ (http://www.ITMconsulting.org) --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------