Some equipment manufacturers are doing the complete opposite. One of our suppliers (name withheld intentionally) has informed us that although our machine is technically obsolete and not supported anymore throughout the company, we can still get parts for our old machine, but we may have to wait up to 32 weeks for delivery. Now do you chance the machine going down for up to 32 weeks waiting on spare parts, buy $150k worth of spare parts to hopefully cover any unseen breakdowns or buy a new machine? We have been lucky enough that our business has been good enough and our demand strong enough for us to warrant buying a new machine, but what if we weren't in this position? My 2 cents -----Original Message----- From: Stephen Gregory [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 9:29 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Dek Printer Hi Phil and All! You're right on many points about buying used equipment. I've bought quite a few machines in my time because the companies that I've worked for have asked me to procure used equipment. I've been careful, and haven't had any bad luck (so far). However, there has been one thing that has recently come-up that I think kind of stinks. I'm a DEK user, and have been for years. I started using DEK printers out in California back when I worked for Comptronix (no longer in existence). We bought what I believe was the 4th DEK-265 sold in the US. I used DEK-265's when I was working for SMART Modular Technologies, and when I came out here to Oklahoma, they had a DEK-265 here. My point is that I've been a DEK user for over a decade, and like their machines. We started growing here where I work, and it was time to replace the tired old 265 MK-1 that we had here, and management asked me if I could find something used. I looked, and at the time I found quite a few used 288's on the market. I found one with an ECU for about 25K, and then about a year later I found another one with a ECU for around 32K. We spent about 12K upgrading the vision system on one with what DEK calls a "Green" camera (nothing to do with lead free, the camera body is green colored). Other than having to replace a vision card on one of them, we've not had much go wrong with either one. We have the occasional belt break, and we need to replace the edge clamp foils regularly because they get dinged and bent. I know our printers are old. In fact they aren't "Officially" supported by DEK anymore, but they tell us that we can still get parts for them. That's where I'm getting a little heartburn... I know that because my printers are old, any spare parts that I order will probably be a bit more expensive than they used to be, I understand mark-up. But DEK has raised spare part prices to obscene levels...and I think it's their way of trying to force us to buy a new machine. For instance, the price for a front door cover strut (the strut that holds the cover open) has almost doubled since I last ordered it from $330 to $604, and an Edge Clamp Foil has went from $184 to $1284! That's right, ONE THOUSAND TWO HUNDRED AND EIGHTY FOUR DOLLARS! I find that unbelievable! So, even though I have a printer that operates perfectly fine, and may occasionally need a part replaced, I can either pay DEK's ridiculous prices for spares, or buy a new printer. When management looks at our cash flow and everything, we'll probably need to keep the printers for a bit longer until buying a new printer makes sense. Meanwhile, DEK makes this windfall from us on spare parts. Hell of a way to treat a long time customer is all I can say... -Steve Gregory- -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Phil Zarrow Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2006 10:35 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Dek Printer Hi Mike and all - You bring up a good point. I know, from working with equipment companies for many years, that used equpment bought on the open market is a double-edged sword. On the one hand, it costs them money to support it when they didn't sell it a second (or third, fourth, etc) time but, on the other hand, if the machine turns out to be a clunker due to mis-use of a previous owner, it hurts their reputation. I've seen this happen quite a bit. There are some very good used equipment firms out there that will support the product fully and include manuals (or copies). They also have arrangements with the OEM regarding parts and software. This should be confirmed before buying from a used equipment firm. Because, nn the other hand, there are some proverbial used car salesman selling machines. I recommend that, if you are looking at the possibility of buying a used machine, for economical reasons, check with the equipment manufacturer first. All the major printer, pick and place, reflow and wave manufacturers take in older equipment on trade and refurb them. These machines will come with the best warranties, upgrades and software possible and prices may surprise you. It is rare that you ever see a used Mydata machine on the open market - they make a conscious effort to buy them back for refurb and re-sell. In the case of DEK, access to their wonderful knowledge base (subscription) is a valuable reason to try them first. Among the used equipment companies, there are some very good ones, as I mentioned. You should be able to get the serial number of the machine you are considering buying. If they won't give it to you, they are merely brokers and don't have possession of the machine, let alone upgrading, etc. Regards and Caveat Emptor! Phil Zarrow ITM Consulting Durham, NH USA _www.ITMconsulting.org_ (http://www.ITMconsulting.org) --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------