I believe Mentor Expedition was really chosen at Palomar in the fall of 2003 because it was a 'magnet' tool and was assumed by us all to be user friendly. It drew many students to the class. Historically they had been using PADS in the class before that and the only criticism I had of that class was it required them to spend a lot of time on the tool and I thought there needed to be more focus on design principles and methods. Plus enrollment was lagging and this breathed new life into the program. Better than 50% of the students in the class with the Mentor Expedition tool had more than 25 years experience in the PCB design field. They didn't need much in the way of basic training you know... They just wanted to learn the Expedition tool and we let them. The remaining students were 'newbies' who really needed the class. Some of the more experienced designers helped tutor the newbies as well. It was an exciting thing to participate in and the students enjoyed the class. It was a good opportunity for the experienced designers and we thought the beginners would catch on and many of them did as I split my time more towards the newbies than the experienced designers. Some students had a harder time and found every way possible to break the tool or cause it to hang...(beginner's luck), some dropped from the class but others of them stuck it out. The AE from Mentor even arranged and offered them a time restricted license of Expedition so they could use at home to study more with to help them understand the tool better. Everyone struggled with it somewhat and groaned a lot. One of our 30+ years experienced students even took an on-line course from Mentor to get better with the tool, it's quite probably the most complex tool I have used from the standpoint of its need to have things just so to make the features work...and it has a lot of restrictions to its smooth functioning... Once you know the 'ins and outs' it's a great performer and I have been told as much from other designers that use it regularly. Many spend more than a year setting things up to get it to operate smoothly. I don't use Mentor in my job... I use Protel regularly, so it was a challenge for me to come up to speed and teach the class at the same time... but we managed albeit with some help from the Mentor AE. We had a tough time, but we also had a lot of fun in the class and learned a lot. We thought it was possible to use Mentor in a dual roll to teach beginners along with experienced designers as well... and it still may be possible if it was configured correctly, but the college tech support from Mentor was lacking and there were no pre-built libraries to capitalize upon and no money to buy them with anyway, and no canned exercises, so getting the network of 25 stations up and running was something of a challenge and took a lot of extra work, but the class had to go on... The Mentor AE spent a lot of his own personal time in the class teaching the tool to me and the students... (You see, I didn't get sent to any Mentor training classes so I was not an expert at the program either. I didn't let that stop me from trying though... I expected to just pick it up and go...it wasn't that simple.) At any rate, it all makes a great 'cocktail' for embarrassment and fumbling for answers when the system won't let you place a part or route a board because it won't compile... or some obscure error won't clear or you loose all your work when it crashes... etc... and all that really detracts from the curriculum and the true point of the class which is teaching design which I tried desperately to focus on but the tool kept getting in the way... it's all water over the bridge now... and things will get better, it just takes time and effort. Realistically, the average designer couldn't afford Mentor Expedition as a platform for setting up a small business... whereas PADS or Protel or some other similar software would be more in their financial reach. (I think Mentor gets about 40k a seat for Expedition)... So the students in my class that were learning Mentor Expedition really needed to have much more than basic training in PCB Design to be truly marketable with that CAD tool. Most shops that use Mentor hire very experienced designers and wouldn't think of hiring a beginner. So it worked well for the experienced folks as a way to enhance their careers... but not so well for the newbies... Which is what bothers me the most... I want to bring the new students up to speed on PCB design. Then let them move to a tool that gets them an entry level job. I'm sorry that some designers resent the idea that new designers need to be trained to keep this profession strong in America and elsewhere. I feel much worse for the kids in America who look for a job and can only get one pushing carts at Sam's Club or twirling pizza dough at the local pizzeria... Our children in the U.S. need careers, not left over service jobs and I want to do something to help change that. That's why I teach in addition to my full time job as a PCB design engineer. If you were going to hire a Junior PCB designer... what would they need to know to be able to support your workload? Would your company train them to use your cad tool? How could they take some of the burden off you to free you up to get more quality designs done? Maybe there in lies an answer. If we figure out a way for the kids to participate and grow with us, then when we retire, they can carry on and we can move to Maui or something... live off social security or whatever... ;) I bet that sounds pretty crazy huh... especially after so much of the old 401K disappeared awhile back... who's got enough money to retire? Not me... and Social security is a joke... Oh well... at any rate, I'm interested in any ideas you all have... and some of the comments made so far are terrific! I'll keep trying to make some kind of a difference here as long as I am able. I really wasn't going to blurt all of this stuff out in the forum but what the heck... If someone benefits from it then it was worth it. I wonder how many of you would have taken on trying to teach in a classroom... it's not for the timid that's for sure... but the rewards of seeing a young kid go out and succeed and get a job with growth potential is great. I think that's what the DC is supposed to be all about... helping designers making it... and their kids too. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 Datron World Communications, Inc. _______________________________________ San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Communications Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:07 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool??? Sore point Mitch... nice zinger... Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 Datron World Communications, Inc. _______________________________________ San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Communications Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Mitch S. Morey [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, January 05, 2006 1:02 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] Design Software to use as a teaching tool??? And I thought I had seen it all... ;) First thought: I'd try my best to talk them out of getting in this field! Get a degree and become an engineer and design circuits! Or, go into ASIC design. PAYS LOTS MORE! Secondly: Don't you instruct the class at Palomar? Why did Palomar choose Mentor as their tool? Wasn't it also an ease-o-use decision along with it being 'given' to the university by Mentor? I'm confused. (That's why I'm in this field) ;) Mitch --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET DesignerCouncil NOMAIL/(MAIL) Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------