AGREED & Bravo The Triumvirate does already considerably lack communication between Designers and Assemblers with Manufacturers. If there is a chance to further dialogue, then please do so.. I do not know the origin of such a gap of communication between directly linked, causes to effect, but for sure it cost the western industry millions.. While, for instance, in other areas of the World (yes same planet) such as in Japan, where Companies such as xMK (not to name it) do about 30% of the Design of the PCB they produce.. and as everyone know, they are able of technologies we don't even see within Western PCB Manufacturers or only for a iota of the production. Why? Don't ask! Economically speaking, I would NOT separate Assembly, Design and Manufacture either because it is exactly one of several arguments Westerners can promote in defending their Know-how and ease of communication in order to solve production troubles fast and efficiently rather than more difficult dialogue with far away companies... See the point..? Brian, as one of the last "Dinosaurs" (friendly meant) could you eventually explain this gap in term of history and development of the industry? Within my experience, on jobs I have been mandated for finding i.e. random blackbox failures amounting up to 20% of its usage time - it was a typical case of non-dialogue between Designers - Manufacturers - Assemblers .. So in short, wish you to use any vehicle fitted with a blackbox that randomly works 80% of the time or more.. I wonder, were a lack of communication or gap involved in NASA failures? What about recent Airplane crashes? "We are likely to be disconcerted by . . . hiatuses of thought" (Edmund Wilson). Very Best Regards Rol@nd Jaquet www.PCBspecialist.com +41-22-880-0405 [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brian Ellis Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2005 9:35 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] New IPC email forum Has no one ever heard of concurrent engineering? If there were no assemblers to give feedback to the fab guys and no fab guys to tell the assemblers what they can or cannot do, then we would have no industry at all. I'll go farther, the designers must be in the equation, AND the development engineers, AND the purchasing managers. If we cannot all talk with one voice or sing the same song, then we are wasting valuable company funds. All these guys MUST talk with each other, all the time and any schism is counter-productive. Even if we work in different factories doing different jobs, our aim is to produce one single article as economically as possible, while respecting the technical imperatives. Splitting knowledge apart will not achieve this and, taking this to a logical conclusion, we shall split the IPC into two or more separate organisations, each believing they are holier than the others, with zero dialogue. Personally, I have been professionally working with printed circuitry since 1955 (yes, 50 whole years!!!) and I have had deep experience in all the aspects of the business from being a development engineer, through designer and vendor of designing tools, director of a high-tech PCB fab plant, assembler AND purchaser and I **KNOW** that you cannot isolate any one aspect from the others. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that most, possibly as much as 90%, of the problems encountered within our industry are because of lack of communications between the various factions who prefer to isolate themselves in an ivory tower and hope the rest of the world bends round their ideas. So, in the name of sanity and efficiency in our industry, do NOT split (rather, merge more of the guys in the equation. Brian Franklin Asbell wrote: > With a show of hands (yes, we can see you) how many out there would be > interested in subscribing to an IPC email forum for pcb (rigid, flex, > rigid-flex, hi-rel, mil, etc) fabrication topics. > > Franklin > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 > ----------------------------------------------------- > -- ______________________________________________ Please note new e-mail address [log in to unmask] --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------