Dear Jeffrey, Dear Technetters, I would like to share a reply I got from ECT / ATG off line on subject. And got the OK to do so. De : Coffman, Craig [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Envoyé : mercredi, 25. mai 2005 01:25 À : [log in to unmask] Objet : Reply on ATG flying probe testers and IPC-D-356A Dear Roland, Thank you for visiting our web site. I will try to answer your questions concerning ATG flying probe testers and test specifications. It also surprised me that I was unable to find the 356A or 356B spec at the IPC.org site. The 356 spec has been the recognized test standard in the bare board industry for > 20 years. One of my co-workers chaired the committee for 356B, and I will ask him to look into this matter. Keep in mind that 356B only adds to the 356A spec. In reality there are no CAD/CAM vendors who fully support 356B at this time (It will take time, programming and economic incentive). Because 356A was approved in 1998, it is now supported by most CAM vendors (Barco, Valor, IGI, etc). The most popular PCB CAD design formats (Mentor, PADS, Allegro) can also be converted to 356A. As to your question of guaranteeing that the PCB fully conforms to the design, yes this is possible. It requires only that accurate data be given to the manufacturer, and that you understand and request the proper type of test. The majority of PCB manufacturers are capable of comparing a supplied CAD netlist to the gerber data. Then testing the final PCB to a netlist generated from that known good Gerber. You should specify this type of comparison and resolve any discrepancies before proceeding. If you then specify the proper type of test for the product, there is no chance of error (other than human). Any reputable manufacturer should be willing to certify the PCBs they produce as well as their procedures including the pass ticket from the tester. The type of test requested is equally important to the quality of product. Buyers are often not specific about the type of test they need and simply trust the PCB vendor to give them good product. Your guarantee will come from requesting the proper test needed including isolation threshold, continuity thresholds, voltage requirements, etc. If you do not specify, the vendor will use their "standard parameters" whatever they may be. Our ATG flying probe testers are capable of testing with whatever parameters and techniques required. Voltage up to 500V, Continuity down to the milliohm range, and isolation up to 2GigOhm. Embedded resistors, capacitors, and inductors may also be tested. You can test every net against all other nets or just the adjacent (near by) nets. Field Measurement is an ATG measurement techniques used by most customers to greatly speed up testing. Our speed (up to 200 points per second) combined with the ability to test feature down to 1 mil in size, has made ATG the clear leader in flying probes. I am not clear on your request for a verifying output from the tester. You can print pass/fail tickets with every test and there is also a function to log every measurement for every test in a file. I am not sure what other items you might want. Most PCB shops also provide a certification of their test if requested. I hope this information is helpful. If you have further questions or specific test problems we can help with, please let us know. Regards, Craig Coffman Sr. Product Support Engineer Everett Charles Technologies Office (909) 447-2633 Cell (951) 741-2633 e-mail [log in to unmask] For fastest support contact [log in to unmask] Very Best regards Rol@nd www.PCBspecialist.com T +41-22-880-0405 F +41-22-880-0409 Mob +41-79-203-3723 -----Message d'origine----- De : TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] De la part de Jeffrey Bush Envoyé : mardi, 24. mai 2005 19:38 À : [log in to unmask] Objet : Re: [TN] IPC-D-356 A/B The main verification from design should be a CAD net that is compared to the net derived from the data sent to fabricate the boards. Once the derived net is known to be good, this should be the net used to further compare the data after DRC/DFM and also for electrical verification. Flying probe will also verify boards similar to bed of nails is the program is developed correctly from the derived net. ODB++ has a net as part of the data container - we can extract a netlist at any part of the process and this is stored in the ODB++ container and can be referenced at anytime. This is one advantage of ODB++ - Downstream has a CAM350 product that can read both Gerber and ODB++, among other formats. Jeffrey Bush Director, Quality Assurance and Technical Support VERMONT CIRCUITS INCORPORATED 76 Technology Drive - POB 1890 Brattleboro, Vermont 05302 Voice: 802.257.4571.21 Fax: 802.257.0011 http://www.vtcircuits.com -----Original Message----- From: Roland Jaquet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2005 12:12 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] IPC-D-356 A/B Dear Technetters, I am back with an old problem .. "Are the produced PCB's identical to my Design?" If I send the D-356 file to the PCB Manufacturer, what does prove me it is matching the production AND the Electrical Test ???? Further more, if tested with a Flying Probes Tester ? They test proximity nets, and eventually more, but never all against one and each one.. What is the reliability confidence in this case? Once the D-356 sent.. who care ? Which feedback do we have?? So is there any practiced way of controlling 100% matching? Is someone asking for it? 1 - Could the CAM generated netlists be sent to the Designer and compared to D-356 ? 2 - Can the CAM output a printed list describing the number of each net length ? 3 - Can the D-356 generate a printed list describing the number of each net length ? 4 - Can the Flying Probes machine (ManiaBarco, ECT / ATG, ...) Generate the number of each net length ? 5 - Is there a software capable to compare each one and show the differences? 6 - I remember our Mania Bed of nails, E.T. was capable to print the netlist he was testing. Which depends of the effectively used bed of nails.. which should correspond to the CAM and Design as well.. but for some reason we do not even know if all the nails are in place to run the test.. 7 - How all the above is handled in ODB++ Up + Down stream?? I would be pleased if someone could tell me how they proceed when they need 100% reliability from Design to Assy.. In case where we are manufacturing in IPC Class 3, IPC-60xx, IPC-32xxx... Thank you Very Best regards Rol@nd www.PCBspecialist.com --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------