ROTFL... :) Chris, as always you can cut the issue cleanly and spread open the 'wound' for all to see... good job. :p I agree with your contention that the IPC policy should be impartial and fair to all of the 'players in this market'. PCB libraries and Thermal Man should not have an edge over their competition in the market BECAUSE of the relationship the developers have with the IPC. There should be effective representation for all players in the market and no favoritism or 'back lobby deals' or 'edging out' the competition because you happen to be a 'buddy' of the CEO or some other such manipulation. The IPC would loose it's members confidence if it was doing things like that... much like Mentor or Cadence or PCAD would love to have an exclusive on the IPC standards to have them 'lean' their way and give them a marketing edge over their competition... In fact wasn't the GENCAM vs. VALOR issue fraught with just that sort of pressure from the Valor people? If the IPC wants to be effective as an organization that truly supports the industry they cannot be playing favorites or 'buddies' with one company over another... in fact in San Diego, we discourage presenters at our DC chapter meetings to keep the sales pitch out of the presentation so that we truly are offering useful information and not just one point of view that is slanted towards one company... So we espouse the idea of a fair playing field and access to our members is restricted to technical content only and no sales pitch activity should be taking place at our meetings... IF the IPC is playing favorites they would have a vote of 'no confidence' so fast their heads would swim... I don't think that's what was going on here in the case of PCB Libraries and Thermal Man and if it was, I don't know who the competition would have been that was hurt by the recommendation from the website... But you are correct to point that issue out and highlight the impropriety of that type of an 'allegation of misconduct' and it would be against IPC policy I'm sure... We'll I assume so at any rate, as I don't truly know all of IPC's policies because I don't work for them... but it would be in the spirit that I have observed so far in our chapter to not encourage favoritism in dealing with companies... I would expect them to behave in like manner. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 _______________________________________ Member of the San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Communications Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2005 11:53 AM To: (Designers Council Forum); Brooks,Bill Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant Bill- New, better tools are great. Did I ever say otherwise? I know you used to do boards on rock slabs with a chisel. I started with papyrus and oxblood, so OK, you've got seniority on me. We've displayed adaptability and now (as then) use the best tools we can get our hands on. What's that got to do with anything? Here's the underlying reason IPC pairing up with a commercial entity bothers me: Once it starts where does it stop? Are you OK with it if somewhere down the line IPC says, "If you want your designs automatically certified IPC compliant, you have to use CADTOR software." And you or your company just invested in MENTANCE and can't afford to buy a seat of CADTOR. But because of this pairing of IPC and CADTOR, none of your customers will accept your MENTANCE designed layouts anymore. And maybe you had your life savings invested in MENTANCE, and because you weren't on the inside and didn't see it coming, you didn't sell before IPC made the announcement. Now I don't think this will ever happen, so y'all don't have to tell me how stupid that is. DID EVERYONE HEAR THAT? YOU DON"T HAVE TO TELL ME HOW STUPID THAT IS! But there is a line somewhere between impartial standards and full blown product endorsement. Where is it today? And in general, it chafes me in the same way that Halliburton getting gazillion dollar no-bid jobs awarded to them by our government, some of which happen to be ex-execs at Halliburton chafes me. So I rant. Grip this, buddy! I'm happy to be alive and employed and living in America, just like you want me to be. I embrace new technology. In fact, I'm dancing the maranga with it in my lead-foil hat! It's likely that I'll soon be urging my company to at least evaluate moving to the PCBL tools (though maybe under an assumed name, now...). I never had an issue with the tool. -Chris (a kinder, gentler CID) "Brooks,Bill" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent by: DesignerCouncil cc: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant 05/11/2005 12:52 PM Please respond to "(Designers Council Forum)"; Please respond to "Brooks,Bill" You know, I don't really understand this 'whining' or what sounds like 'sour grapes' or whatever... well I do understand it a little, but I just get fatigued by it...sheeze. I have been a designer for most of my life, going on 32 years at it anyway... and I used what ever tools I could beg or borrow to improve my efficiency and productivity as a designer/drafter/technician/engineer. I was designing boards for 20 years before the IPC ever had anything to do with my field in design... didn't know anything about them or care to then either. They didn't train me, they didn't make the tools I used... they didn't do anything for me that I knew of either. The guys developing this software that you seem to resent their affiliation with the IPC are fellow DESIGNERS... who saw a need and went after it... God, I hope there are more people like them out there, who want to do things to help me do my job better, faster, and more accurately too. I stay gainfully employed because there are guys and gals just like them who are willing to do more, step out on the ledge and make the leap and innovate... I thank them for being creative and truly helpful to all of the designers out there who benefit from what their vision has made. If the IPC helped them then they should get some of the credit too. If Mentor or Cadence or Altium or some other CAD or CAM company comes along with software that works with the IPC specs... I am ALL for it! Bring it on... we can always use more tools that make us heroes at work. How many designers want to keep on doing the same thing with the same tools for their entire career? Are we getting comfortable? Do we want to stagnate? Or even go backwards? Sometimes I think we need to step back and look at things from a different perspective once in a while... be grateful for what you have, and try to get out there do the other guy one better. That's the name of that tune... otherwise you might as well hit the unemployment line or retire on social security... if there is still any left. I remember vividly the guys who were designers for years on the board looking down their noses at the 'new fangled CAD systems' that were coming out for PC's and they swore they would retire before learning to do design all over again on some damn computer... It didn't have a drafting machine attached to it, or a decent scale, there was not place to sharpen your pencil and frankly it was just 'way too small'. Besides, drafting was an art, you see, you had to twirl that pencil while you drew the lines and make sure not to smudge the lead on the paper, plan out your drawing and lightly pencil it in with blue lead first so you could figure out how to get the layout centered on the format... and an electric eraser was well a necessity... for the big changes... or complete redraws... "Never draw more in the morning than you can erase in the afternoon", they would say. Come on...get a grip, quit whining and get back to work... you are a lucky bunch and you aren't living in India or China or Bosnia trying to make a living with a drafting table because your employer can't afford the expensive CAD tools from America... put it into perspective, you are very blessed. And please don't discourage the innovators who happen to be designers like you too... they just might make your work load lighter and make your life a whole lot more enjoyable, and mine too. Stop and smell the roses once in a while... even though they have thorns... they are pretty nice, and they smell good. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 _______________________________________ Member of the San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Communications Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ http://pcbwizards.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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