Ok... let me jump in here.... I listened to a National Public Radio bit this morning regarding advertising in movies, and placement of products within movies... the actor drinking the cola drink... driving in a late model car .. etc. All companies, and .org's are trying to find new and better ways to generate revenue to meet the everyday business needs of their organization, or they would most likely go bankrupt or not be able to hire the quality of people needed to run an organization. The question becomes, does IPC meet my needs? Am I willing to accept the subliminal or blatant advertising that comes with it? Do they still provide a value to my workplace? This level of advertising is acceptable to me. Karl From: Chris Ball <[log in to unmask]> Reply-To: "(Designers Council Forum)" <[log in to unmask]>, [log in to unmask] To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 09:43:48 -0400 Nick- I've learned whole new ECAD systems quicker than the time it took to type that original rant. It's been my spare time-filler for a while (and I still used some bad grammar). My intention was not to imply that PCB Libraries is selling a poor-quality tool disguised as an IPC standard. Sorry if that's how you took it. I've only used the portion of the PCBLibraries tool purchased with IPC-7351. Regarding the pending IPC-2152 spec. and Thermalman software, I've got their freeware calculator. But for now, the calculator results don't match any formally released specification or standard. So far no one has supplied an example of another standards org. doing what IPC is doing with these companies. I really don't know one way the other and would like to hear if it's happening elsewhere. Is this a general trend or an IPC thing? -Chris "Nick Ban (PCBL)" <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent by: DesignerCouncil cc: <[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant 05/10/2005 01:49 PM Please respond to Nick In the time it took to type the original rant, one person - somewhere in the world - built half a dozen high-quality parts right into their CAD tool ...from scratch. For those whose heads spin at this rate and prefer the traditional way of design, a free (and limited) version of the LP Calculator is still on track for release this summer. This version will not be as powerful as the current LP Calculator, but still more powerful than the SM-782. For those wondering, the Pantheon outputs are now available; Protel and Expedition coming right up. Nick -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ed Murphy Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:47 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant Just a question... Have you guys used this program? Or are we just be philosophical about the whole topic and approach of sales.... if so then continue on ranting... you have earned the right.. if not... try it... it saves me a &*@#-load of time and is worth the money.... even in US dollars!!! Just my opinion.... Ed Murphy CID The great white north chapter.... Ottawa eh! -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 12:07 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant Just a cautious word of advice... Please, before you go accusing the Executive Board... be informed about the IPC and who runs it and just how the Designers Council fits into the overall organization. http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=2.1# Most of us have opinions about the organization and those working in its interests and MOST of us don't really know much about them or it at all. I urge you to check into it before casting dispersions about the folks I know are very giving and helpful and aren't making a penny off their contributions. Not to say that there aren't some who aren't so engaged and deserve the criticism... be that as it may... Not everyone is a mercenary or 'in it for the money'.... besides, designers aren't walking around with large bags of money to spend... especially on specs. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer, C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 _______________________________________ Member of the San Diego Chapter of the IPC Designers Council Communications Officer, Web Manager http://dcchapters.ipc.org/SanDiego/ http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Alcorn, Brent [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 8:19 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] Propaganda Rant Hi Chris, Well put, and I too disagree with their approach. Brent Sr. P.C. Designer Analogic Corporation PS. Makes me wonder if I really want to be certified by this entity?? -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Ball Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 10:32 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [DC] Propaganda Rant Since it's been quiet lately.... <RANT> When I was a kid growing up in the USA, the USSR was the bad guy. The thing I remember most (besides Kruschev with a hole in his shoe) was that their government was always spewing complete bull$h!t to their people. And the government's version was the only version the media dispersed. That wasn't really the worst aspect of their regime, but that's what I remember most vividly. It seems to me that America is sliding down the same path these days. You look the camera in the eye and spew. Your story doesn't even have to be very plausible. This technique seems to be working for our current regime and for several ex-CEO's. I concede that our current leaders are not the first to employ the tactic (I would argue that the gravity of the subject matter is vastly different, but that's a whole 'nuther thing). And now it seems to propagating into the general population. IPC-7351 is different than any IPC spec has ever been. If you purchase it, you receive a piece of software from an outside company as part of your purchase. If you use this software, you find that more goodies are available to you from the authors for a price. I'm not saying whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, just that it's true. Now it sounds as though the next highly anticipated spec, IPC-2152, will be similar in that it will be linked with an outside company's product(s). When posts on this forum appeared questioning the way things were being done, in both cases, responses quickly appeared informing us that these guys put up a lot of their own money and time just to get this done. These postings implied that people out there are making great personal sacrifices to improve things for us designers, with little or no thought of personal gain. No backroom deals or insider trading, nothing sneaky here. The point being obscured by this propaganda is that IPC specifications are now endorsing and bundling specific commercial products. It appears to be a trend. Is this acceptable to the general population of specification consumers, or does it seem a little shady? Are there any other examples of standards organizations integrating a limited subset of a commercial software application (with hooks to other for-purchase features) into their published specifications? -Chris (el-CID) P.S. If I decided to open a restaurant, I'd put a lot of my own time and money into it. I'd hope my customers really loved the food, left happy, and came back often; that dining at my establishment affected their lives in a positive way. I'd care deeply about people who eat, and honestly have their best interests at heart. But it would all be driven by self-interest. I wouldn't do it if I didn't think I could at least make a living at it. I don't think anyone would. I wouldn't appreciate being represented as some sort of culinary martyr in the food forums. And if I was in cahoots with the food critics and travel guides, and on the premier gourmet publication's board of directors, that'd be great for me. </RANT> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET DesignerCouncil NOMAIL/(MAIL) Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This e-mail message is intended only for the use of the intended recipient(s). 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