Dang but those Aussies sure do talk purty :^) IAndy K. is a stalwart gentleman. So are the other people he mentions. I know Nilesh more than CHristi or Jean but Andy's word is good for me. As important as some of these issues are, can we move on to others. p. Pete Waddell President UP Media Group 678-589-8813 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 03/22/05 20:00 PM >>> I need to make a comment here: The Designers Council Executive Board is working hard to get the best deal for designers possible. Right now, we all realize there is some way to go with that, but we're heading in the right direction, albeit more slowly than any of us would like. Nilesh is very active in Designer Council affairs. Nilesh has stated more than once that he sees designers as crucial in the design/fab/assembly continuum, and he works hard behind the scenes to raise the status of designers and the Designers Council to the professional levels where these belong. I have every confidence in him continuing to do that, and while he also has limits on his influence with the powers that be, he adds considerable experience and knowledge to our debate, and I believe is just the man to push our agenda on our behalf in front of the IPC Board and other places. At the same time Jean Hebeisen and Christi Poulsen work very hard on our behalf and are doing a great job with the limited time and resources at their disposal. It's my belief that we should support Nilesh, Jean and Christi in every way possible so that our own suggestions and advice reach a level where there is the authority to act on them. And none of us laughed at you when you suggested Board representation by the Designers Council. We all thought it was a good idea, the subject was raised in Albuquerque in August, and Denny told us that by the terms of the IPC Charter, as individuals we didn't qualify for representation, or something like that. So be it - the subject is not dead but nevertheless I have every confidence in Nilesh representing our views. Bill, I'd like to make a suggestion. We should probably keep the nitty-gritty issues within the DC Executive. Displaying our dirty washing to the public doesn't help our cause at all, and as you said yourself, I'm not sure too many designers are that interested. Andy Kowalewski Chairman, DC Executive Board [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill Sent: Wednesday, 23 March 2005 09:23 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe) Interesting comment Pete,... I really wasn't privy to other specs and their creation but I was in the meetings for the CID+ creation and did see how that was run I have only been in on this since 2001. We actually do have representation that 'intercedes' for us to the IPC in Nelish, Jean and Christi. They do listen to our suggestions and our comments... and we appreciate their efforts and support. They do get a lot done... and manage a lot for as small a group as they are... The different committees made up of designers like us take our members wishes and needs to the IPC staff and get them to present those in the form of programs and events to help meet those needs. It's funny you should say that, because I have always thought that in principle, the DC should have 'equal representation' on the IPC board of Directors...or whatever policy making body there is that affect our future, equal to the PCB manufacturers and Assembly folks if you get my drift. After all we are a fundamental part of the whole industry aren't we? But I don't think we could afford to pay the kind of money they do to stay in-the-game after the revelations that they do ante up a pretty sum of cash as a standard practice... (Too pricey for my wallet if they wanted my participation). Anyway, it has never been offered and the few times I naively mentioned it in meetings and discussions I was laughed at and told that there was 'no way' we would get someone from our group on the board... I guess the thought is out of the question as far as the 'true' IPC members are concerned... Unless they do have someone who is a designer from the DC at their board meetings, they aren't really going to hear the true designers point of view from someone who has been there... someone who has been a designer all their lives and can speak it straight... the way it truly is. I wouldn't hold my breath though... it will probably be a long, long time... if ever... until anything even remotely like the DC having influence over any of the policy of the IPC happens... I don't expect the IPC will come running to us asking us to be on the board... not anytime soon... and by contrast, anything less is not really not true representation by a designer though... now is it?... so in effect we are 'attached' to them, supported by them, but without a lot of clout or say about what they do or how or when they do it... we depend on the 'good graces' of the representatives that we meet with and coordinate with to get things done and our comments pass thorough a filter of sorts... but it has all worked up to now... We are communicating with them through our representatives the best we can through the system that is in place now... and so far we are having some success with most of the things we need to do... there are some that we meet resistance on too... but you can't win them all... they have their own things on their plates to deal with too. We just keep at it and hope they get the message... most of the time they do. We do have folks in the IPC that really appreciate our group and its needs and they want to help us succeed as an organization. We are truly thankful that they recognize that and we need their support. We can talk about it but I don't think we are going to change 'city hall' anytime soon. Besides most designers don't want to be bothered with all the stuff the IPC is into... we just want our issues dealt with and the backing it takes to get things done to make the PCB industry a better place for designers to make a living and to help make better products for our companies... some of whom are 'true' IPC members I might add... I think we do that through educational content and opportunities we can present to our fellow designers to advance their careers. And so far the IPC has been helping us do just that in a lot of ways. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Pete Waddell [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 12:16 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe) Bill, the CID is not a standard. Apples and oranges. Thing is designers should be part of the process. We all know how important design is to the process and for one reason or another they are still being shut out of the process. By shut out I mean they are not accorded (wether by management or ??) they same level of importance accorded other disciplines. I still sayall of us are the ones to set that right. p. Pete Waddell President UP Media Group 678-589-8813 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 03/22/05 01:01PM >>> Hi Mike, Well, I can think of one exception... The creation of the DC CID and CID+ study guides and test were done almost entirely by designers contributing to the creation of the material and tests... I think the only IPC staff persons assembling and editing it was Deiter and Gary. At least they were the ones going all over the country having meetings with the individual designers that contributed their weekends to the creation of the materials and objectives. I also noticed when I was at IPC APEX/Designer Summit in Anaheim that there were substantial fees paid to attend standards meetings that were being held there... I have never had to pay to attend a meeting yet, so I know they don't charge the designers to attend our meetings but I did think it was strange to charge the folks that came to the spec creation meetings... maybe now I understand why... if they are paid representatives from companies that want to influence the outcome of the spec... interesting... I know the designers can't do that and aren't being paid by some company as lobbyists to influence the spec creation... :) we can't hardly afford to by some of the specs let alone lobby the outcome... Thanks for the insight into the IPC's inner workings though... it's not an easy thing to understand where they are coming from for a lot of us... Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Mike Buetow [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2005 9:29 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications (or new subject maybe) Having spent 4 of my 6 years at IPC working on standards, I want to clarify one thing. The great majority of those who worked the most on the standards -- i.e., attended the meetings, wrote the verbiag,e etc. -- did so on assignment for their respective companies. In short, it was considered part of their jobs. Some companies -- Northrop and TI were two -- assigned particular individuals to maintain roles on dozens on standards task groups across many organizations (EIA, Jedec, IPC, ESDA, etc.). These individuals' sole responsibility was to coordinate their respective companies' positions and ensure their input into the standards groups. (Some of these folks were paid very well, some in the six figures, I might add.) So the notion that the men and women who wrote the specs were doing so on their own time and expense is mostly myth. Like anything, there were (and are) exceptions, of course. Mike >>> "Nick Ban (PCBL)" <[log in to unmask]> 03/22/05 12:18 PM >>> Please search your post, you will find you did in fact mention "PCBStandards", and I merely corrected you. PCB Libraries has on several occasions been confused for PCBStandards. They are NOT the same. Why are you telling me I'm wrong in correcting you? Also, if you make my company look bad (ie suspicious), are you telling me I have to right to explain/correct your statements? So far I noticed three types of people replying to my messages both online and offline. 1. PCB Libraries is doing a good job and my company is currently or can benefit 2. PCB Libraries should provide its innovation for free - Its developers and creditors don't necessarily need to recover their costs; hey it's all for the good of society, right? 3. Volunteers should spend the next several years reinventing the wheel and making the software available for free - Spend the next 5-10 years reinventing the wheel with volunteers working on this part-time. It's all good if you can do the same for free out of the goodness of your heart and the whole industry will thank you. I'm inclined to believe by the time volunteers are done, there will be other tools that do MUCH more than simple calculations and a simple calculator like the 782 one-tier online calculator is quite obsolete. How do you plan on competing in the global economy with something that's simple and obsolete? Those in category 2 and 3 are only going to let more jobs float away overseas to cheaper labor. There are those who invest a few weeks worth of savings they would reap from an innovation, and there are those who won't. Over the next year, more jobs will probably be lost to cheaper labor because some just refuse to work smarter. That is (and will be) their problem, but unfortunately, it's our industry. Now regarding the IPC standards, I don't want to say anything about people commenting on price now, but applying this concept to the development of standards... I must say that from what I recall of my days at IPC, pretty much nobody who commented on the pricing of standards was involved in creating them. Apparently the volunteers know that creating the standards takes much more time and money than they can put on the table. Nick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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