I saw the movie, not sure if that's exactly what it was called, but I know what you're talking about. So IPC should basically give its standards and training materials out to the industry for free to help it out. Consequently, shut down due to lack of revenue. Isn't what you're saying going to benefit the industry once and never again? IPC cannot function like the government and subsidize development without getting some kind of income. The government gets your taxes (unless one figures out clever loopholes and doesn't want to pay their due), IPC doesn't (that's why it charges for its standards). Companies like Hallmark, Coretec, Mentor and Overland can help the designers more directly because its core business is in another area and very profitable. IPC mainly relies on membership dues (how much was the DC membership again, $50? per year?) and sale of standards, among some other things. I see how what you're proposing would benefit the industry in the next year, but 2, 3 or 5 years from now, who will? I suspect another entity would arise to fill that void with the same intent of supporting its continued existence. Do we then we can ask them to give away its standards just the same "for the sake of the industry"... and then repeat the cycle? Keeping in mind most volunteers are doing it as a "side job" to get visibility and other intangible benefits, why would anyone even bother investing in creating, promoting and updating standards? Like I said, if volunteers can find it in their hearts to contribute much more than they do now (ie travel/hotel and time), for example coordinating and signing off on meeting room contracts, catering, promotion campaigns, graphics work, etc., the list goes on... basically satisfy all the requirements of creating such reliable standards, why don't they? Hint: it would cost too much time and effort (not just once, but on an ongoing basis) and they would probably end up having to charge people for the standards like IPC. Nick -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 4:53 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications Nick... I see what you are saying... It just doesn't work that way in my mind. From where I stand, The industry as a whole stands to gain the most from better trained designers... why not have 'the industry' help fund their education? They make grants and scholarships to colleges and universities, they support their political affiliations, why not invest in the designer community that stands to make them the most profit through adopting better design practices? Some companies already see this and are doing something about it... We expect our government to spend money on R&D to further our economic strength... well, why not support the designers of the products we want to fuel our economy with? 'Pay it Forward' so to speak... you ever see that movie? If not, you should rent it... what a great concept. Just like designers need to invest in their careers, the PCB industry and the foundations that support industry need to invest in its PCB Designers. That's where I am coming from... but hey it's just an idea... maybe it will never catch on... or then again it might... and what companies are going to get to claim the honors and praise from it if it does catch on and the industry invests in it's designer community... ? I know Coretec and Mentor are investing in the Designer community now... I'm sure there are others that designers can name that have been big heroes, like Hallmark Circuits for one, like Overland Storage for another, who helped the local Designers here... I think there is a great opportunity here to 'raise the bar' to a higher level and really make an investment in the DC... make it a much stronger force for bringing together designers and industry and strengthening our place in the world. We just need to see folks think of it as an investment in their own futures as corporations. Then someday making specs available will be a trivial matter. And they won't have to do all the copy protection 'stuff' to the disks. The DC will be in the black instead of the red... and I will keep hoping for the day. Who knows I may see it in my lifetime... it could happen.... not everyone is a mercenary. Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Nick Ban (PCBL) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, March 18, 2005 12:55 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications When you take the top-mgmt compensation and prop it up against the overall costs (many specified below), it just won't compare. As much as I'd like to believe that it could, I seriously doubt that by reducing - even completely eliminating - top management compensation will put any kind of significant dent in the cost of the standards, forget about 'slashing' the price to make them much more affordable. Programming, website management, graphics design, meeting planning, production, training, accounting, and customer support all sum up to much more than what top management makes, and this is only staff compensation. Then factor in the other operational costs. Our capitalistic society will find a way of doing things cheaper. If someone in the electronics industry knew that they can earn a decent living creating, producing, promoting, selling, and updating reliable and ANSI approved standards of the same caliber as IPC's ****at cheaper cost****, I'm inclined to believe they would have done it already, especially during the industry's poor employment conditions of the past few years. Nick ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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