Just to reiterate... Designers already do get good discounts on a lot of specs by being members of the Designers Council. That's the best way for designers to get the specs they need. We are always lobbying to get discounts on key specs that are needed by the designers and we get them. If you see one that you think should be on the list... lets us know. See the DC website for the discounts available to members... http://dc.ipc.org/DCmembership/memhome.htm http://dc.ipc.org/DCMembership/DISCDOCS4DCmembers.pdf DC membership is 50.00 a year. Corporate Members are perceived and being participants in the spec creation process and as supporters of the IPC in general for the collective good of the industry through their membership dues and additional intellectual and financial contributions to the organization. Corporate membership is 1,000.00 a year. http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=2.2 IPC also participates globally with other organizations in getting consensus in standardization and absorbs the costs of getting the folks together to agree at meetings in different places around the world... http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=2.1.2 They are in the process of changing the focus of the IPC on being a global entity as opposed to just a manufacturers' representative organization. Nick is right to point out that their costs are substantial in making it possible to create the standards and there needs to be a way to fund this... very beneficial activity... There is a substantial overhead in running an organization of this size and scope. http://www.ipc.org/stafflist1.asp#pro The revenue streams are not well known by most of us designers... I am still trying to get my arms around that one... just to get a feel for the operating costs of the organization and how it gets money to operate the activities it's involved in and how it uses that money to fund activities related to educations, specification development government lobbying, etc... http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=6.5.2.4 http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=6.5.2.3 http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=6.5.2.2 http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=6.5.2.1 I don't know if the culture of the organization is able to change in such a way as to make the dissemination of the data more accessible to the lower income small companies and individuals than it already does... but being a optimist, I'm sure that they can find ways to improve somewhat and I know they want to... so if we just be positive by trying to bring the focus back to the issues at hand... maybe they will see a way... who knows. One great part of being a member is your ability to help shape the future and direction of the organization... through participation. I highly recommend involvement and participation... it's a great way to help change things for the better. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Nick Ban (PCBL) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 10:47 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications Please don't misunderstand me, I am not for IPC becoming wealthy. However, I would like to see it operational 5 years from now. Lowering cost of the standards may get more people to purchase more, but that does not necessarily mean that IPC will be able to make up its expenses in creating and promoting of the standard (ie sustain itself). It seems to me it's about choosing the lesser of two evils: 1. Higher cost standards to cover the expenses - Some cannot afford and probably illegally reproduce standards; operating expenses met. 2. Low cost standards to make more affordable - cost of creating standards remains high (even with the cutbacks of the last several years), and liabilities cannot be paid despite the fact that everybody in the industry uses the standards. While most standard users would prefer option 2, it is not a good business model of any company that isn't otherwise adequately funded. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Johnston [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Monday, March 21, 2005 11:54 AM To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications Nick, I don't think it about getting specifications and training for free. Its more about getting more affordable for the individual designer. Whether a member is an individual or a company should not be an issue when discounting to members. We all want standards to help get the job done right, but if they are unattainable then eventually the standard will be no more. It is more the individual then a company that keeps the standards a standard. I know from where I sit I get the (non-member)company I work for to buy standards from the IPC, because they are necessary. I am the only member at this company and in the past have had some trouble getting them to bite on the IPC standards. What I'm trying to say is that because a company has individual member(s), the company will buy standards at full price, and Rane (the company I work for) buys these standards for both Engineering and manufacturing. I would think this is worth more than a discount. Well thanks for letting me rant. Ray Johnston Lead CAD Designer Rane Corporation 425-355-6000 rayj@rane,com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. To temporarily stop/(restart) delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET DesignerCouncil NOMAIL/(MAIL) Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------