ROTFL!!!! 'U da man' George... De-wayne Preston and I used to laugh out loud back in the 1980's about how we were still hand taping when the rest of the world was using CAD... I have a cartoon still tucked away in my file cabinet at home of a rather hairy Neanderthal at the Light table working away on the board... It had a caption that remarked how 'OG' and 'BOG' were able to design with 'Stone Knives and chisels'... You really want to go back to those days? ;) At least if we had to we could... but we would have to resurrect Bishop Graphics... Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: George Patrick [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 4:25 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications I have a bit of a problem with our headlong rush to put everything in electronic format without the benefit of print. As time goes along and irreplaceable resources become more scarce (such as petroleum and coal), electricity is going to become scarce (well, you don't think them green party bozo's are going to let nuke power make a comeback, do you). I would like to think we could still design our PCBs (with tape and knives, of course) and still have the 'ol print IPC standards to fall back on, even though there would be no power available to spin up the CDs. <%^o We could power the gizmo's we design with solar energy, couldn't we? Well, if Chris can make bad rhymes, I can go off on a wild tangent. -- George Patrick Tektronix, Inc. Central Engineering, PCB Design Group P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512 Beaverton, OR 97077-0001 Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587 http://www.tektronix.com http://www.pcb-designer.com It's my opinion, not Tektronix' -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Pete Waddell Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 15:33 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications While it certainly costs less to do discs I for one can vouceh for the fact that printing (not to mention postage) cost have - and are still - going up. TTry to think f it as paying for data, not a book. I remember stories from the 90s about receiving and accounting folks wondering how a 10" mag tape could be worth $50K - even if it was stete- of-the-art CAD code. While I consider myself a print kinda guy, I'm looking for more and more stuff digital. (Natl Geographic has gotta be print. I also do not do "books on tape - I like hardbacks - it's a preference for which I pay extra) Now, the issue with things like standards is the format for you printing and the issue of reuse or licensing. The digital method of getting it from the agency only makes sense, unless ya wanna pay EXTRA for print. p. Pete Waddell President UP Media Group 678-589-8813 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 03/17/05 16:56 PM >>> Good points Jack... However, almost every time I have had to look something up, I have been somewhere away from the computer... Books do not require batteries or an electrical outlet to read them... and I can Xerox a page if need be... I wanted to be able to do both, and if the print function was setup to let you print the book so you could end up with both it might be worth buying the CD... but as it was, I was much happier with the paper version for my needs. At least I can carry it with me to the local restaurant and read while I eat lunch if I need to. :) CD's are much cheaper to reproduce than paper books and should be cheaper to buy if you ask me... but it's hard to fight city hall... something special about it being electronic makes it cost more... go figure. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Jack C. Olson [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2005 1:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications on the other side of the coin.... I love having computer versions. paper sucks. I can make a bazillion copies, and why do I need to print them anyway? I just need the data when I need it. As a matter of fact, they include a utility to print a single page at a time if you really need to show a print to someone. I never used it, because if I ever need to show anything I just use snagit (or any other decent screen capture utility) to print it. paper is temporary, data is forever. just another opinion... Jack p.s. I would recommend IPC-2221, 2222 and the land pattern standard. That will keep you busy enough for awhile. Here's a free copy of the next 2221, go here and click the "drafts" link: http://www.ipc.org/committeedetail.asp?Committee=D-31b Get it quick, they don't stay there forever... Bryan Randall <accutrace@VERIZO N.NET> Sent by: To DesignerCouncil To <DesignerCouncil@ [log in to unmask] ipc.org> cc 03/17/2005 01:45 PM Subject Please respond to Re: [DC] IPC Design Specifications accutrace@verizon .net Caterpillar: Confidential Green Retain Until: 04/16/2005 Retention Category: G90 - General Matters/Administration Bill, Thanks for your help! I will proceed with paper copies as you recommended. Bryan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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