When h or kW RF is actual, we use to have an opening in the board and the hot component is mounted directly on the metal structure. For instance power transistors. When that is not practical we use BeO (not popular) or AlN as insulator. Printing thickfilm conductors on these is easy and simple technique. I feel there may be one little concern with the anodized aluminium: the least microscopical damage to the insulating layer can cause leakage currents, especially at high voltages. And what do we know about high temperature properties for 10-30 years operation? Indoor anodizing use to be some 5-10 um thick and outdoors 10-25 um. Dielectric constant ought to be approx. 8 and the dielectric withstanding voltage 10-50 V/micrometer. Interesting topic. Let us know what you find out...before the japs put it into their production...gosh..they are already in ?...(sigh). Ingemar Hernefjord Ericsson Microwave Systems -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: den 13 januari 2005 23:41 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Aluminum substrates... any issues? Bill I was looking at this form the same point of view for high power RF applications. I didn't see anything on the dielectric properties of the anodized coating. How does it compare to Teflon or other high performance laminates? We do a lot of incorporating heat sinks into or onto PWBs where most of the concern is with trying to get good thermal and electrical connection to the heat sink. Like you, I put it on my "of interest" pile, I'm just not sure how to use it. -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Brooks,Bill Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:14 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Aluminum substrates... any issues? Ramon is correct. Copper makes a good heat spreader and is more efficient at getting the heat out to the extremities.... On the other hand, It's harder to machine, and is more expensive than aluminum. Aluminum is popular because it costs less and is easier to machine extrude or mold into shape, and it's still a good conductor of heat. Specific heat is measured by the amount of energy it takes to change one gram of material 1 degree Celsius. The 'specific heat' numbers for some thermal conductors respectively are: Aluminum: 0.900 Copper: 0.385 Silver: 0.232 Gold: 0.128 Now it takes less energy to heat gold than it does to heat silver, copper, and then Aluminum which is in fact more than twice the energy to heat than copper is. You can see why copper makes a good heat spreader though. It was the preferred choice by the makers of pots and pans... Anyone still use copper bottom pans to cook with? I think the aluminum is good though and much of the performance of a heat sink is directly attributable to the surface area and good mechanical interface between the heat source and the heat sink. The idea that you can 'hard anodize' the aluminum to make a dielectric layer has been around for sometime, and since we use surface mount parts on a lot of our boards it might lend itself to a design that has a lot of heat to deal get rid of, like for example these high powered LED's we see used in the street lamps or in cars. I bet they get pretty hot when in use... I was just wondering if RF amplifiers could take advantage of the concept and how the impedance of the circuit could be calculated to make a 50 ohm conductor on the surface of the aluminum oxide layer... We have to deal with hot components all the time in the RF world... so I keep an eye out for new ways to do things. It might be worth experimenting with. I may order a sample of the material to see how it performs. Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Dehoyos, Ramon [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:43 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Aluminum substrates... any issues? The relative conductivity of Copper is about twice that of aluminum. Regards, Ramon -----Original Message----- From: TechNet [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Denis Lefebvre Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 2:25 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Aluminum substrates... any issues? I've heard of "copper core" boards before, but not aluminum. I suppose it would preferable with respect to the fact that aluminum is a better conductor than copper. -----Original Message----- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2005 11:08 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] Aluminum substrates... any issues? I ran across this supplier of aluminum boards and was interested if any of you have dealt with this type of thing before? I have seen metal core boards made with alumina and bonded with the fiberglass/epoxy for heat sinking needs but this looks like a different process. Possibly less expensive... ??? http://www.irctt.com/pdf_files/thickfilm_aluminum.pdf Any comments on it are appreciated. Best regards, Bill Brooks - KG6VVP PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D.+, C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 e-mail:[log in to unmask] http://www.dtwc.com http://pcbwizards.com --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-615-7100 ext.2815 -----------------------------------------------------