Pete, Great topic for this forum... :) It's a subject that engenders emotional responses from many... especially those who have not worked for the past four years... (I know some personally) We are suffering somewhat from the discovery by corporations that they can get portions of their work done through outsourcing to much lower cost labor pools in foreign countries... When I became a designer, I was working as an electronics technician for Oak Systems at the glorious wage of $7.25 an hour. I had actually had worked at lower wages than that and been happy to have the work, as I was a young guy and needed the money. I got an opportunity to train with the others who were in the drafting department, and they got a bright young kid who didn't cost them a lot who did the work that some more experienced person could have done for twice as much... Was that a bad thing?... maybe for the 48 year old guy they let go to get me, the 20 year old, for less money... but it made my career develop and I am thankful for that. I was sorry for the guy that they let go, but he wasn't performing up to speed, or accuracy. He also wasn't up to date on his knowledge, he wasn't keeping himself trained... therein lies the problem... I think anyone who is honest with themselves will realize that this is an open market, the way you win the job is being the right person with the right skills and work ethic and the right price at the right time... It's never easy or convenient to spend time training yourself, and the time you need that training most is usually not until you are unemployed, and don't have the money to afford the classes... That's why the 'wise ones' are getting the training and upgrading their skills now, while they are employed... they give up the 'free' time and apply themselves to their career development all the time. They never stop learning. They never take it easy... they always have some sort of training going on. It's not easy, but nothing worthwhile is easy.... I think we are just competing against a much larger workforce for the good jobs... Constant training is the insurance that we will get those jobs... Hopefully the companies that have those jobs will recognize that the talent is here, even though it may cost a little more, the results are worth it. Remember the only thing they have going for them is lower cost... which does not necessarily mean a better product. And doing business out of country has some additional hurdles to over come that can really induce risk into the equation. Companies are finding that out... it's a painful lesson sometimes... I think the jobs that we will definitely have here in the U.S. are non-exportable jobs, ones that they can't get done overseas... or that they are concerned about loosing their intellectual property to an unscrupulous nation without the same copyright law enforcements. International business may come to us though because we are the best... and that's because many designers are getting the training and certifications being offered through the IPC Designers Council and the UP Media events on the west and east coasts. Better trained means better chances of landing that next job. That's what competition is all about. We want to help our designer members get prepared to meet that challenge. Best regards, Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: Pete Waddell [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 1:30 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [Retrieved]Re: [DC] "Sitting on the Dock of the Bay...." Lou, you broach an interesting issue that I was ruminatin' on just the other day. To everyone: what applications - mil, medical, etc - would y'all insist SHOULD be designed, manufactured, tested in U.S.? Are there levels of applications where you feel they should be designed/manufactured/tested domestically? As I understand it, there are people from other countries than the U.S. that subscribe to this forum. How do you as designers in Europe, India, Asia etc react to the feeling in some circles in the U.S. that "our" jobs (they really don't belong to us, you know) are being "shipped overseas". I'm not coming down on on side or the other here, I'd just like to know how y'all feel. If you feel this post is inappropriate for this forum, let me know that also. p. Pete Waddell President UP Media Group 678-589-8813 [log in to unmask] >>> [log in to unmask] 09/30/04 15:18 PM >>> IMHO... It better be written in several foreign languages for foreign universities. Pcb's will no longer be designed in this country, except for military applications. Lou --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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