Roger, I also found passing the C.I.D. exam a life changing experience. I paid for it myself, studied hard, and passed the exam. Six months later, I quit working for the ungrateful employer and started contracting my services to anyone that was interested. I have never looked back and rarely have to supply a resume to anyone. Gaining my C.I.D. has helped me learn how to study and work thru problems. After leaving the employer, I went back to school and obtained a certificate in fitness and health. The surf was fun today. :) Leslie, C.I.D. -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Roger Stoops Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:51 AM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] C.I.D.Certification Exam (NTC) Gee Roger, got up on the wrong side of the bed today? We need a little perspective on this, then I'm done for the day... You wrote: "Only 104 questions? Gee, much too easy. What a load! Since you have slipped into the personal anecdotal mode, I will not comment on that. It's not relevant anyway. Those with photographic memories would consider missing 6/104 a failing grade!" I took the CID exam in April 2000. This was right on the heels of a very serious portion of my life, namely lymphoma. (July 5, 1999) Had a chest full of it, could only sleep on my back. Had an excellent oncologist (thankfully he was an MD), I responded well to treatment (chemo+radiation, radiation was given by someone with a BS in radiology), and I'm very thankful to still be here (maybe had a good 2-3 months to live, if that, without treatment, unless I had a stroke first from compressed veins, went from neck size 16-1/2 to 20+). Said that to say this: I had an interesting side effect from chemotherapy, besides the others that will remain for many years. Experts call it "chemo brain," where the patient has memory difficulties. My wife would say something to me, and 5 minutes later I would forget. Experience always helps, but I had a real time in remembering various things, including board design details. So then, relevance is a matter of opinion. And if the letters that us "dumb" people put behind our names don't mean anything, then why did you feel it necessary to say you had credentials far to numerous to mention? Pot, kettle, black. Suffice to say, passing a certification has meaning to many as a measure of personal achievement or self-worth or measure of knowledge, or not. Looked real good on my review this year... An exam may not be perfect, as nothing is, and may only be a start, as most things are. And I will still have the same respect for someone who passes all tests/certifications for designers, for the friend of mine that did not pass the CID+ cert (in my mind she is still a very good designer and a nice person too), and for those that have not taken or will not take the exam. No likey letters? Fine. Likey letters? Fine too. Let's turn off the blowtorch, and get back to work, or continue working, or whatever. Kind Regards, Roger M. (Dad never told me) Stoops, ROT (Really Old Twit) Trimble Navigation Ltd. (Limited), Dayton, OH (Ohio), USA (United States of America) Ph (Phone): +01 937.245.5288 Fax (Facsimile): +01 937.233.7511 p.s.: gotta get this tooth fixed.... -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Roger Gathright Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 2:00 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] C.I.D.Certification Exam This is a "Journal" response. I usually do not do this. But a silly "Off Topic" letter required an application of common sense. > I guess that's my queue to jump in... I think you really meant "cue!" (I KNOW, you are not versed in the performing arts!) > As long as I can remember, a designer's resume > was the only document that represented his/her > level of expertise. It still is! Nothing has changed. > Now, I have been doing this a long time, since 1973, > so I have seen a number of résumé's come across my desk > for evaluation and recommendation. So your a newbe? I have been engaged in design and the art of packaging since 1961, and in electronics since 1958. I have found that only an individuals ability to do a job counts for anything. > I have watched people with fine résumé's get hired > and fired in the matter of a few weeks because the > interview or resume' did not reveal a deep lack of > knowledge or work ethic in an individual that only > showed up in the work environment. I watched people > actually lie to the interviewer and we only really > found out that they were lying after they had been > there for awhile fumbling or making inexperienced > mistakes. So, we started testing applicants. > We never had a problem after that. The potential > candidates were asked to perform what they said > they could perform, and if they wanted the job > they showed us what they could do. Your assumption that it is a lie is presumptuous, it may Have been an optimistic self appraisal, of just "I did contribute" so the case is stated too broadly. I have actually caught an applicant in a lie, he claimed to have been principle on a project I finished over two years before he was hired. Such cases are rare! You demand FREE work as an entry fee? Such a practice is mean spirited and unethical! A true professional never works FREE! I have seen people with a Masters Degree and a 4.0 grade point average who couldn't do the work. Managers with a P.E. who had to be led through a project, then THEY signed off the drawings to take full credit for the design. (IMHO: P.E. often means "Pitiful Excuse") > The C.I.D. certificate is not given out for money, > or bribery, or some sort of subterfuge, > but is ...earned... by showing the designer community > that you know what you know. Or that you rely on external symbols of accomplishment, rather than actually keeping up to date and continuing to learn to pursue your chosen profession. I have never found that a PAPER improves quality or quantity of an individuals work. > The hiring mangers know this too now, and are using > the CID as a hiring criteria in many cases. So your saying they have quit trying to select quality in favor of an arbitrary requirement, like what school you attended or the day of the week you were born? > The CID does mean something, and it has earned the > respect of the companies that have paid for the > designers they have to take the test and get the > certification too. The designers who were brave enough > to step up and be tested have earned the right to wear > their CID mark with real pride. You will notice they > have it following their signatures and on their business cards. So does every other fool that thinks a test sets them above, or somehow guarantees some special treatment or denotes a quality that only they (by virtue of a test?) bestows. Letters following a name mean they can't spell it out, have a weak personal self image and rely on external symbols to prop them up. I generally ignore the attempt to aggrandize or otherwise attempt to use such weak talisman to promote themselves. A company which relies on such symbols is often the first to go in real competition. > I equate this certification with the P.E. certificate that is awarded > Professional Engineers. They go through a similar process to get their > certification and it is recognized as an indication of their level of > knowledge in engineering. I agree with you on this. A P.E. is not only a test, it is a political tool to bestow a favored status upon those that support a system of favoritism and exclusivity! It has little to do with ability, nothing to do with ethics! > The C.I.D. is the ONLY certificate a PCB designer can get that sets them > apart from the 'Wannabee' designers, drafters, and techs... and it is > respected by companies and designers in the industry who know what it takes > to pass the exam. That is why it is a highly prized and respected > certificate and the Designers Council, made up of PCB designers and > Engineers, is committed to always keep it that way. > That does not mean that anyone who does not have the certificate is not > qualified... They just have not been tested and certified. Certainly if they > were certified there would be no question as to their knowledge level. And > once tested they can compare that level with others who were brave enough to > have stepped forward and put their reputation on the line by testing and > certification. Hiding behind a test result is not BRAVE. Doing the work on a daily basis IS! > The successful designers studied hard and even though the information may > seem to be simple and 'common knowledge' to many, you would be surprised how > many had difficulty with simple questions... The ones who did not pass > either did not study or just had no knowledge of the subject. After going > back and studying, they usually passed the second time they tested. > When I took the exam I was so keyed up and wanted to make sure I had it all > down before the exam, that there was a great deal of concern in my demeanor > and stress over the exam. I was not alone in this feeling, there were > designers who would not test at all who walked out because they realized > they were not ready for the test... there were those who cried tears over > the stress of getting tested, its not a 'walk in the park'. If I remember > correctly I missed 6 out of the 104 questions... so don't discount the > validity of the test or its difficulty, but realize that you can pass it > with study and hard work. It is truly a measure of the designers experience > level and their knowledge level and can be a very good thing to have on your > resume'. Only 104 questions? Gee, much too easy. What a load! Since you have slipped into the personal anecdotal mode, I will not comment on that. It's not relevant anyway. Those with photographic memories would consider missing 6/104 a failing grade! I learned long ago (About 1965) that I could do almost anything where there was a good written history of how it is done. The challenge is to apply it and move on to contribute more than is already part of history! Each individual must decide for themselves how to best advance their skills, and what tools to use to accomplish that task! Peddling a "Certificate" or "degree" or some other substitute for experience helps no one. Each individual has an inherent potential, and yes, limitations. Only that person can select for themselves the manner that will allow them to best progress toward their particular goals. Roger Gathright (NO SILLY LETTERS) My credentials are MUCH too long to put in a few letters! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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