Things have been changing, James... I want you to notice, The most vociferous responses to my comments are from NON-CID designers. Perhaps they are trying very hard to justify why they aren't stepping up to the challenge... Regardless of whether or not the CID is and exact 'equivalent' to a PE, it serves the purpose for designers, and all PCB designers have had very few good sources for well documented design education or any measure of that in degree or certificate form from any college or training facility... we gleaned what we could from the Mil specs, and Bishop graphics - and PCB magazine. I would like to see the CID approach the equivalent of a PE... with a real college level study course. You prove my point though, the testing they were doing at the facility where you were applying is and was a standard way of screening candidates. This is changing... I have seen many job requirements in the last few years that had a request for the CID as a 'plus' to any designer's qualifications... and as 'preferred' in a few instances. It is known now... it is respected now... (albeit not by certain old fossil designers that don't want to be a part of ANY organization, except maybe the AARP... ) and it IS the future of this profession. Designers that want to advance their careers need education, training, and certification to tackle the design challenges ahead. That's why you see so many designers doing the workshops and taking the tests. That's the future... especially for those that do not want to be left behind. Not all designers will get it... not all designers feel they need it... but most of those designers will be retired in the next 10 years. The rest of us will be certified. What about the ones who are in their 20's and 30's? They are going to be dealing with the next generation boards that will no doubt make what we are doing today look like child's play. The IPC DC and its chapter organizations are building the roads that those designers will follow to get there. Is there a chapter in your area? If not, look into starting one. The IPC DC has guidelines on how to set up a chapter on-line and willing helpers to assist you in getting it going. You can make a difference in your area. Guys like the ones who are knocking the certification program should be in here helping to make it better, adding content to the education materials and making sure the next generation of board designers has the collective benefit of the knowledge that we all have collected of the past 50 years. Critics are everywhere... what's needed are volunteers to help make it better. Are you helping at the DC local chapter level? Are you one of the few who are pitching in to make sure your knowledge doesn't disappear with this generation? I know and admire all of the volunteers who are making it happen in the face of all the obstacles. I recommend it highly to any other designer who would like to make a difference too. Pitch in and help. We need you. P.S. I am planning on taking the CID+ exam in the near future, too. Best regards, Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com -----Original Message----- From: James Jackson [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 10:59 AM To: (Designers Council Forum); Brooks,Bill Subject: Re: [DC] C.I.D.Certification Exam Bill, I took the CID exam - and passed it - years ago (1998). I paid for it out of my own pocket, too - not relying on my company to pay for it - like another group that was there. My experience has been that when applying for jobs... 'human resources' and/or the fella interviewing me has no knowledge of this 'CID' exam - or what it means. Most companies have developed (or the local one) their own 'exams' that they seem to put more stock in - than this IPC certification. As an example... a local employer has spent years defining, and refining a 'technical exam' for anyone who wants to apply for ANY position at the technician level, in the electronics area of the company. This includes P.C. Board layout designers. Now... it has been years since I have had to think about how to design OpAmp circuits... and I mean figure out the feedback resistors and such... not doing the actual board layout. BUT! They put more stock in whether you can do this, than whether you actually know how to do a P.C.B Layout - which is what the position is for. Go figure. I am sure that if I politely pointed out to the person sitting at the front desk - who is only able to 'grade' the exams... and has no knowledge of what a PCB Designer does - that I have this CID... it wouldn't cut any ice. If you don't 'pass' this magical technicians' exam... you don't even get to speak with the next level person in Human Resources. My point??? My CID hasn't done squat for my career - and this is the main reason that I am not even interested - or considering taking the CID++ (or whatever it's called). My other thoughts on this... getting the CID - OR the CID++ does NOT mean that you know how to design... it only means that you know how to take - and pass - a test. Most of the information on the CID was discussed in the classes prior to the actual exam. All a bright person has to do is listen - remember, and take the test. When they pass it - they get the certificate. Simple as that. This is just my .02 worth. Your mileage may vary. Regards, James Jackson Oztronics ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brooks,Bill" <[log in to unmask]> To: <[log in to unmask]> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 11:01 AM Subject: Re: [DC] C.I.D.Certification Exam I guess that's my queue to jump in... As long as I can remember, a designer's resume was the only document that represented his/her level of expertise. Now, I have been doing this a long time, since 1973, so I have seen a number of résumé's come across my desk for evaluation and recommendation. I have watched people with fine résumé's get hired and fired in the matter of a few weeks because the interview or resume' did not reveal a deep lack of knowledge or work ethic in an individual that only showed up in the work environment. I watched people actually lie to the interviewer and we only really found out that they were lying after they had been there for awhile fumbling or making inexperienced mistakes. So, we started testing applicants. We never had a problem after that. The potential candidates were asked to perform what they said they could perform, and if they wanted the job they showed us what they could do. The C.I.D. certificate is not given out for money, or bribery, or some sort of subterfuge, but is ...earned... by showing the designer community that you know what you know. The hiring mangers know this too now, and are using the CID as a hiring criteria in many cases. The CID does mean something, and it has earned the respect of the companies that have paid for the designers they have to take the test and get the certification too. The designers who were brave enough to step up and be tested have earned the right to wear their CID mark with real pride. You will notice they have it following their signatures and on their business cards. I equate this certification with the P.E. certificate that is awarded Professional Engineers. They go through a similar process to get their certification and it is recognized as an indication of their level of knowledge in engineering. The C.I.D. is the ONLY certificate a PCB designer can get that sets them apart from the 'Wannabee' designers, drafters, and techs... and it is respected by companies and designers in the industry who know what it takes to pass the exam. That is why it is a highly prized and respected certificate and the Designers Council, made up of PCB designers and Engineers, is committed to always keep it that way. That does not mean that anyone who does not have the certificate is not qualified... They just have not been tested and certified. Certainly if they were certified there would be no question as to their knowledge level. And once tested they can compare that level with others who were brave enough to have stepped forward and put their reputation on the line by testing and certification. The successful designers studied hard and even though the information may seem to be simple and 'common knowledge' to many, you would be surprised how many had difficulty with simple questions... The ones who did not pass either did not study or just had no knowledge of the subject. After going back and studying, they usually passed the second time they tested. When I took the exam I was so keyed up and wanted to make sure I had it all down before the exam, that there was a great deal of concern in my demeanor and stress over the exam. I was not alone in this feeling, there were designers who would not test at all who walked out because they realized they were not ready for the test... there were those who cried tears over the stress of getting tested, its not a 'walk in the park'. If I remember correctly I missed 6 out of the 104 questions... so don't discount the validity of the test or its difficulty, but realize that you can pass it with study and hard work. It is truly a measure of the designers experience level and their knowledge level and can be a very good thing to have on your resume'. Best regards, Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. Tel: (760)597-1500 Ext 3772 Fax: (760)597-1510 http://pcbwizards.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. To set a vacation stop for delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET DesignerCouncil NOMAIL Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------