Thanks Brian. We haven't seen particles on assemblies, but we do have a gooey mess depositing around the walls above high-water level in the wash tank. Consistency is tar-like, and hard to scrub off. Definitely seems tree-sap based. Filtration seems like the way to go. One other thing - machine came with curtains between wash sections composed of black Buna-N rubber. Over time, Vigon releases black carbon particles from the rubber. We're going to replace with another material, probably Viton. -Joe -----Original Message----- From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 11:48 AM To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; Kane, Joseph E Subject: Re: [TN] Cleaning Chemistry I would strongly advise a filter loop. This product is not a conventional saponifier. I suspect it forms large micelles round hydrophobic molecules from the flux residues and, if these are filtered out, it keeps the solution clean for a lot longer and prevents the re-depositing of particles onto the assemblies (and probably clogging). Our experience with filtration was quite positive. I agree going water-soluble will give you probably better results at a lot less expenditure, providing you have good process control. The operating manual, containing a large amount of technical detail on Vigon cleaning, of the machine I made is at http://www.protonique.com/apl5special/protonique_sa.htm NB This may appear commercial but I excuse myself as this machine is no longer made and the company has been long liquidated. Brian Kane, Joseph E wrote: > We're using Vigon A-200 in a Technical Devices in-line > system, cleaning RMA flux residues. The wash section has > two pumps, one for high pressure spray, and one for high > volume/flood. We successfully clean a wide range of > assembly types at 1.5 feet per minute. > > We're in the process of changing to a water-soluble flux > for wave solder, and a "cleanable" no-clean paste for SMT. > Some product will stay with RMA. > > Vigon is expensive, but the major advantage is that you > may not need to dump the wash tank for a good long while > (months). Of course, this reduces chemistry and disposal > costs. We use deionized water for makeup, keep solution > concentration between 15 and 18%, and the tank at 122F. > We stupidly tried makeup with city water once, and developed > a foaming problem. > > We don't have a filter loop - larger particles seem to stay > in the bottom of the tank. We're thinking about adding a > filter loop to see if this would reduce clogging in the > spray nozzles. > > -Joe > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian Ellis [mailto:[log in to unmask]] > Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 2:36 AM > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [TN] Cleaning Chemistry > > > Yes, I designed a batch cleaning machine specifically for Vigon. The > important thing is to keep the filter circuit pump running 24/24 or, at > least, several hours after use. The disagreeable part is changing the > filters because the saponifier solution is quite alkaline and the spent > filters are hazardous waste. I recommend you have 2 sets of filters and > a pair of 3-way valves, with a pressure gauge on the pipe between the > pump and the valve, so that you can see when a filter is becoming > clogged. I did toy with backwashing the filter but I don't think that > this would make much difference. > > When discarding used Vigon solution, remember that it, too, is alkaline > hazardous waste, containing heavy metals and toxic hydrocarbons. If sent > to a specialist company for disposal, the containers must be > appropriately labelled. > > The Vigon itself worked well with some fluxes and pastes, but not all. > As with all processes, qualification of the flux/paste, in conjunction > with Vigon, **under YOUR particular conditions of use**, is essential. > > Brian > > Dehoyos, Ramon wrote: > >> Hi Yo'all: >> One of our board vendors has changed their cleaning agent > > to > >>Vigon A 200 for their in line cleaning. Their in line cleaner is an >>Electrovert Aquastorm. Does anybody have any experience with this agent? >>Vigon A 200 is suppossed to be good for medium to high pressure. >> TIA. >> Ramon >> >>--------------------------------------------------- >>Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e >>To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in >>the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet >>To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > >>To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > >>Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives >>Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > > for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > 847-509-9700 ext.5315 > >>----------------------------------------------------- >> >> > > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 > for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > 847-509-9700 ext.5315 > ----------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in > the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 > ----------------------------------------------------- > > --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 -----------------------------------------------------