Of course this is a 'hot button topic' so I will weigh in on what I think is best at this time. Others may have different opinions but that is what makes a democracy. IMHO - The American way is through competition... I would venture to say there is American money behind the job development overseas. I think I once heard someone say that we should teach the 3rd world to farm so we can quit making them so dependant on AID from the U.S. Well, we made clothes here, but now we make them in Indonesia and Pakistan, we made cars here, but now we make them in Canada and Mexico, dare I say, we made PC boards here... and now we are making them in Taiwan and China? There will always be someone to compete with... Unless the world becomes socialist. We are STILL the leaders of the free world... we can still out think them, we can still out compete them, and we are still in the lead there's nobody on the track ahead of us. Don't spend your time looking back... look forward to the next hurdle, so you don't trip up and loose the lead. Where is the industry heading? Are we on track? Are we moving forward? Are we dealing with the obstacles? I can tell you, in my humble opinion, we as designers need to go back to school. Get more electronics knowledge, get smarter about board impedance, EMI, loop area, signal propagation and reflections, loads, etc... etc... Upgrade your skills to be a better designer so you can take on more difficult designs. All the designs that are going to happen in the U.S. are going to be military, or high speed, or Microwave/RF or Hybrid.. tough designs, hard ones, the ones they don't dare send overseas.... THOSE will keep you employed and working. That's where the money will be. I think... let the guys and gals overseas do the through hole single sided and double sided stuff.. they need to make a living too. I don't want to be paying my taxes to send to their governments to pay for welfare... let them work. Teach them to feed themselves. Just an opinion...but I don't think I'm wrong. Best Regards, Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. -----Original Message----- From: Ray Dwyer [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:42 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] [pcdlist] Re: [DC] Industry Report Card Greetings Forum, I'd like to cut into this conversation about international competition. I do a little work after hours at home designing boards (board layout)and I have bid on a few projects trying to get work like many others who do late work at home. I found out from one of the companies that I bid with that the work went to India. All the more power to them but they are doing it for $6.00 an hour. The nationals that I and some of you are now bidding against are from India, China, Philippinians and VietNam, just to name a few and their wages are from $4.00p/hr and lower to $8.00 p/hr, plus or minus a few. Now that is some serious Competition. How can some one possibly work using the expensive design tools at that price? -----Original Message----- From: DesignerCouncil [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ]On Behalf Of [log in to unmask] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 4:07 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] [pcdlist] Re: [DC] Industry Report Card I agree that something should be done, but singling out NAFTA seems to be counterproductive, considering that Canada and Mexico are BOTH loosing jobs and business to other countries. As far as anything actually _being_ done, if the IPC considers itself an international organization, it is unlikely they will be interested in any lobbying or pressure on the government. I won't say anything about the likelihood on any politician _doing_ anything, that's for other forums :) -- George Patrick Tektronix, Inc. Central Engineering, PCB Design Group P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512 Beaverton, OR 97077-0001 Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587 http://www.tektronix.com <http://www.tektronix.com> <http://www.tektronix.com <http://www.tektronix.com> > http://www.pcb-designer.com <http://www.pcb-designer.com> It's my opinion, not Tektronix' -----Original Message----- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 13:19 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [DC] [pcdlist] Re: [DC] Industry Report Card It was just one of the comments I got. I think the person that made the comment were referring to political action in general but named NAFTA as one of the opportunities to get political that was passed over. There are many reasons for staying out of politics... but there are also some very good reasons for being involved... I think that this person had a good point and I wanted to bring it out in my report. I believe the IPC received money in the form of a grant from the government for some activity a while back, I can't recall exactly the details but I believe it was for a good cause. They certainly could lobby for our industry and do something to help promote its health here and abroad through some political involvement. I have no knowledge of any involvement but it's certainly a valid point and could be presented to the council. Bill Brooks PCB Design Engineer , C.I.D., C.I.I. -----Original Message----- From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 1:05 PM To: [log in to unmask]; [log in to unmask] Subject: [pcdlist] Re: [DC] Industry Report Card Bill: NAFTA? I don't think the problem is with NAFTA. India, Malaysia, and China weren't in North America, last I looked :) -- George Patrick Tektronix, Inc. Central Engineering, PCB Design Group P.O. Box 500, M/S 39-512 Beaverton, OR 97077-0001 Phone: 503-627-5272 Fax: 503-627-5587 http://www.tektronix.com <http://www.tektronix.com> <http://www.tektronix.com <http://www.tektronix.com> > http://www.pcb-designer.com <http://www.pcb-designer.com> It's my opinion, not Tektronix' -----Original Message----- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 11:58 AM To: '(Designers Council Forum)'; [log in to unmask] Subject: [pcdlist] Re: [DC] Industry Report Card What does the IPC Designers Council mean or do for you? Here's a consensus of some of the comments I received back. Designers that responded had a generally positive feeling about the DC with some specific issues that seemed to dominate their concerns. Lack of local involvement in certain geographical areas due the unavailability of educational presenters to speak to members seems to be one of the most troublesome issues. Not all chapters enjoy the same level of benefits or content. Chapters are expected to develop their own programs and content and manage to create a local chapter that serves the needs of their own community. Some areas are doing well and others are suffering from lack of involvement. Most all feel the DC organization is beneficial in multiple ways, primarily in providing education and secondarily the economic benefits related to purchasing the expensive copies of the specs from IPC. The Community aspect of the organization was mentioned and is more true than it ever was before. Designers are connected through e-mail newsgroups and their local chapters in a way that was unheard of 15 years ago. Still certain geographical areas are left without support or a group to gather with at all. Some expressed disappointment in the activism level of the national organization in areas that are obviously controversial, like lobbying for change in NAFTA, or dealing with the export of jobs, and technology. The CID program is generally thought of as relevant and useful, with few exceptions, and most feel we should continue this activity and improve it. The dues are generally thought of as sufficient at their current level. Most would like to see more opportunities to get discounts on education materials and IPC specs. Overall grade so far, ( you decide ) . I would give their performance a 'B'. Good, but there is room for improvement. Any comments or suggestions on this report card are welcome. We want to be a valuable asset to designers as an organization and encourage all to participate in making the DC a great asset to the PCB designer community. It takes your feedback and involvement to make it better. Bill Brooks, CID -----Original Message----- From: Brooks,Bill [mailto:[log in to unmask] <mailto:[log in to unmask]> ] Sent: Tuesday, October 21, 2003 2:31 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [DC] Industry Report Card Industry Report Card.... 1) What does the IPC Designers Council mean or do for you? 2) Do you like what it's about? 3) Do you know what it's about? 4) Have you investigated into it? 5) Is it beneficial? 6) Is it Useless? 7) A boon to designers or bomb? 8) What should the IPC Designers council be doing, or not be doing? 9) Is the CID program useful? Meaningful? How about the Learning Symposiums? 10)Are the 50 dollar a year dues to high? Low? Or just right? Are the discounts deep enough? Or on the right things? It's time for a frank, honest, industry report card. Let's hear what you the PCB Designer thinks of the IPC Designers Council, after all, it's your organization... what do you think of it? Is it perfect? Is it lacking? What needs improvement and what needs to stay the same or even go away? How are we doing? Bill Brooks , CID To unsubscribe from the pcdlist, send an e-mail to [log in to unmask] with "unsubscribe" in the subject field. If you have any questions or problems, contact [log in to unmask] To unsubscribe from the pcdlist, send an e-mail to [log in to unmask] with "unsubscribe" in the subject field. If you have any questions or problems, contact [log in to unmask] ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. To set a vacation stop for delivery of DesignerCouncil send: SET DesignerCouncil NOMAIL Search previous postings at: www.ipc.org > On-Line Resources & Databases > E-mail Archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16 <http://www.ipc.org/contentpage.asp?Pageid=4.3.16> for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- DesignerCouncil Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8d To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF DesignerCouncil. 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