Well Said !
 
T h e only stumbling block , I can think of in this whole scenario is that many of these Companies are Foreign, and ultimately governed by the laws of those countries.  Which almost without exception are written with the sole purpose of protecting the companies within their borders, regardless of the impact that occurs elsewhere.
 
Just a word of caution we need to be cognizant of before we name names is that facts must be correct , and statements verified , before being spoken or written, less the door is opened for legal action in the form of Libel , and slander suits.
 
Thus I propose  collectively if we want to pursue this that we do so off this net and through our individual e-mail , as both a protection and courtesy to the IPC.
 
Russell Smith
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-----Original Message-----
From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:25 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [TN] Machine registration fees...

I think that the first thing that we need to do is take a level headed look at just exactly what is reasonable, and what is not.
 
If you buy a used machine with no documentation, and you happen to be a "nimnu", then the manufacturer might be reasonable in charging you a fee to train you how to operate the machine, or hold your hand every time you turn it on.
 
A manufacturer certainly has the right to charge a "reasonable" price for manuals, accessories, and spare parts, but at the same time, if they are being unreasonable, then the consumer also has the right to stand out in front of the manufacturers plant (or booth at a trade show) with a sign that says "beware of extortion", or "rip-off".
 
It sounds to me like some of these practices would be an outright violation of the law in some states here in the US, and it is certainly an outright ethics violation in any locality any way you look at it.
 
The "practice" of removing and relicensing software sounds particularly illegal. Notwithstanding what any of the particular EULAs (End User License Agreements) may specifically say, there are laws that govern even software in these instances, and in most jurisdictions, the laws will specifically override anything an ELUA may say, specifically if the software is required to make the hardware operate. In other words, just because an ELUA says something, doesn't make it so. In yet other words, a manufacturer may attempt to screw you with its ELUA, but the ELUA may in fact not be lawful, and you may have specific rights in spite of the what the ELUA might say. Anyone playing this game not only deserves to be sued, but may deserve a little ferderal "extortion" time. If any of these "crimes" have occured in interstate commerce (across state lines), then it just may be time to call the U.S. Attorneys Office and ask them whether or not there is anything that can be done in any specific circumstance..
 
Please please please make the names of these companies public.
 
Please please please at least send me their names off line.
 
We need to let these people know that what they are doing is unacceptable, and that we as consumers are not going to let them get away with it.
 
Yes our industry is hurting and having hard times, but that's all the more reason to stick together and expose the "economic terrorist" among us.
 
What can we do?
 
Firstly, we can flood, and I do mean flood, these specific manufacturers with tons and tons of email, letting them know that this is totally unacceptable. If you don't want them to know who you are (in the event that you own some of their equipment), and are in fear of reprisals, then you can get a "Yahoo!" or "Hotmail" email account and be anonymous.
 
Secondly, we can find out where these people plan to exhibit their equipment at trade shows, and the like, and let them know that several of us will be there to talk to every single one of their prospective customers and let them know just exactly what kind of business they actually conduct.
 
Thirdly, we can each look into just exactly what kind of consumer protection laws exist in our own specific states and governmental jurisdictions, as I am pretty sure that there is some "consumer" / "warranty" protection against this kind of stuff in at least some localities.
 
Fourthly, we can file specific complaints with Trade Associations and Better Business Bureaus, and right letters to trade magazines. Respecting whether or not any specific magazine will or will not publish any specific "letter to the editor", I am sure that if a magazine is inundated with mail / email, that they would  at least publish some letters that would touch on the issue without naming names. Maybe the thing to do here is "nufge" the magazine to publish an article respecting "fraud, extortion, and unethical conduct" on these practices.
 
Fifthly, we can set up a specific "Yahoo! Groups" email list where these companies will specifically be named and their practices specifically exposed, and where we will let the companies know that they will be named and their practices exposed.
 
Sixthly, we can find out who the reps for these companies are, and give them a good piece of our mind.
 
Seventhly(?), we can turn off our "caller id" on our own phones and then call these companies and their reps and let them know that we "are mad as heck and we aren't going to take it any more!". If they have an 800 number, borrow your neighbors phone and blast them.
 
Bottom line here is that some of these practices are not only unethical, but in some cases might be outright illegal, and we need to publicly go after these guys for this kind of behavior.
 
As one parallel post pointed out, maybe it is time for a letter or two from a company lawyer.
 
JaMi Smith
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">Steve Gregory
To: [log in to unmask] href="mailto:[log in to unmask]">[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:43 PM
Subject: [TN] Machine registration fees...

Hi All!

I guess this is one of the downsides of having a buyers market on used assembly equi
pment, and I do understand how depressed the new equipment market is, but I'm being asked to pay resistration fees in the thousands of dollars, on each machine that I bought on the open market...no matter if we've bought new equipment from the company that is now asking for fees before. Are any of you experiencing this as well?

Without the fees, you won't get any support at all. Was told we could still buy parts, but that the part numbers change all the time, so if I was to order a part out of the manual, they may have that number under a different part, and send that part to me. Once it was received it's ours, and it could not be sent back for credit. Even further, without being registered, they wouldn't tell us what the new part number should be. Feels like you have no choice but to pay the fees.

Again, I understand how bad the market is now, but it seems that I've only experienced "registration fee" stuff in printed circuit assembly equipment. If I go buy a used car, I don't charged a fee to have my car worked on by a factory trained technician, or have to pay a fee to be able to buy OEM replacement parts...

Kinda' stinks if you ask me...

-Steve Gregory-

 
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