Bev, We get by for several reason; one we have to there isn't much of a choice, work long hour when we need to, and focus our efforts. We only have SEM/EDX, XRF, Sonoscan, transmission x-ray, cross sectioning, and optical microscopy. Anything else we farm out. I'm fortunate that while at Lucent Technologies I worked with three individuals who did world case cross sectioning. Two of those people are still at Lucent and the person who trained those two is with me at Andrew. The reason we can get along so lean is that we don't do in-coming inspect or material certification or routine analytical evaluations. We analyze failure, some field failures but mostly (90%) intentional failures caused during reliability testing of new products and designs. Actually the work is great. We do a lot of quality characterization and provide answers for problems that crop up and questions raised by component engineering and design organizations. As an example, we don't own a wetting balance. We test solderability by soldering (Dip-&-Look or simulated surface mount soldering). The reason we don't have a solderability tester is because when someone comes to us with a part that doesn't solder he already knows the part doesn't solder and the last thing he wants to hear from us is that the part isn't solderable because it doesn't pass J/STD-001 or 002 because he already knows that. What he wants is a reason why the part isn't solderable and what he should do about it. That is where our XRF, x-Sec and SEM/EDX play an important roll. In 99% of the cases we do a solderability assessment by determining what the surface finish is, why it would cause problems, and what can be corrected. You may have a hard time justifying changing the position to a full time job but I'd work real hard at trying to maintain the intern position. I find it invaluable to have "new blood" in the lab even if their skill set is limited. They usually bring a new way of looking at things and the on the job training you and your staff need to do keeps your skill set functioning. Regards, George George M. Wenger Andrew Corporation 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 (908) 546-4531 [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Bev Christian [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 2:57 PM To: TechNet E-Mail Forum.; Wenger, George M. Subject: RE: [TN] Technical Question about Materials Labs George, Now we are getting somewhere. I like your comments about "never enough" and "too much". The reason I ask is that I run a captive lab with 5 people - manager, chemist, materials scientist, seasoned tech and an intern in a company of 2000. The latter is leaving unexpectedly and I am trying to justify turning the position into a full time one. We have SIR, EM, x-sectioning, viscometers, DSC, TMA, DMA, TGA, strain gages, solder pots, tensile testers, FTIR, XRF, IC, SERA, SEC, ICP, Thermoire and SEM/EDX. Sounds like I am spoiled in the present environment, but how in the world do you keep everything in tip top shape with only two people?!!!! regards, Bev Christian Research in Motion -----Original Message----- From: Wenger, George M. [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: June 6, 2003 2:44 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [TN] Technical Question about Materials Labs Bev, There is no rule of thumb and when you talk about appropriate level of staffing there are two views. When your involved in the work the appropriate level is never enough. When your involved in funding the work the appropriate level is always too much. I'll give you the numbers that I've seen over the years. Most of the analysis labs at manufacturing locations I've interacted with in Western Electric many years ago were typically staffed with about 6 people for plants that had 8000 to 15000 employees. Several years later the analysis labs at manufacturing locations I've interacted with in Lucent Technologies were typically staffed with 2 people for plants that had 3000 to 5000 employees. Our FMA Lab in Bell laboratories was staffed with 4 people before the telecommunications industry when through their downturn and at the low point the Lucent FMA Lab was staffed with 2 people. When I went to work for the Lucent spin off called Celiant the Lab had 2 people to support 250 employees. Now that Andrew purchased Celiant the Lab has 2 people to support 4500 employees. When I've visited CMs I seen any where from 6 to 10 lab people What I've seen so far is a single company usually has 2 people and one that works with numerous customers typically have 6 Regards, George George M. Wenger (908)-546-4531 Reliability Engineer RF Power Amplifier Group Andrew Corporation, 40 Technology Drive, Warren, NJ 07059 [log in to unmask] -----Original Message----- From: Bev Christian [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 1:51 PM To: [log in to unmask] Subject: [TN] Technical Question about Materials Labs Technetters, This question is directed mainly at the "lab rats" out there. Are there any rules of thumb that are used to determine the appropriate level of staffing a lab to support an electronics manufacturing process/plant/company? Based on what - square footage of lab, plant, number of people in company? Obviously it is also related to the complexity of the product(s) and $$ in the pocket of the company. Just curious. Any of you independent labs willing to wade in on this one? Susan? Terry? regards, Bev Christian Research in Motion --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any unauthorized use of this email is prohibited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------ [mf2] --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 ----------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ This message is for the designated recipient only and may contain privileged, proprietary, or otherwise private information. If you have received it in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete the original. Any unauthorized use of this email is prohibited. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ [mf2] --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 -----------------------------------------------------