Steve: Speaking specifically to assembly, the learning curve that results from documenting the criteria of the manufacturing process for proto's is clear (in my view). But, it requires an enhanced procedure such as separating out proto's from production via the latest acronym to reach vogue-dom in our world; namely "NPI" or New Product Introduction. Procedurally, the process for NPI can meet ISO standards. However, the process is clearly different BUT TRANSFERABLE to production with obvious modifications for volume. As stated earlier, co-operative engineering must rule the day here and that is why we have resistance to it. The industry is abhorrent to open kimono communication between diciplines and therefore, we lose manufacturing value. The result is slower turns, less DFM, longer turn-around and loss of market share. Has not recent history shown that. My comment has been the business has not disappeared.....its moved! What to do? Choose companies that understand that meeting your needs means flexibility of process without, as you say Steve, any loss of Quality. Just my view Charlie McMahon Steve Gregory wrote: > Hi Charlie! > > I'm not suggesting ANY compromise in quality what-so-ever. What I seem > to encounter is that the reason a prototype job is not released to > build is that the work instruction is not done, or the travelers are > not done, yada-yada-yada... > > So the assembly sits, and sits. I'm saying that something can be built > without all the normal production stuff...epsecially when it's a proto. > > I'm asking if the time that is spent on all the documentaion, etc., > that is normally done on production product under a ISO system, needed > for proto's? > > To me, it's not...but I sure appreciate any debates... > > -Steve Gregory- > >> Steve: >> >> If I may suggest a two pronged attack.... >> >> As one experienced in QT and production boards, I have found no loss >> of turn around capability due to ISO. High end process control is >> what it is afterall and >> should result in high yield (low waste) performance when adhered to. >> >> (1) Clearly, I suggest ASAP DFM as quickly as the design allows is >> of utmost importance. >> >> (2) I am a believer in the Deming Principals of Co-Operative Engineering. >> That is....at the proto-type stage, involve the PCB fabrication >> supplier, assembly engineering, test AND service to design in the >> best value. >> The result is a quicker to market design. >> >> With designs demanding leading edge capability, there should be NO >> EXCUSE ffrom qulaity suppliers to cut corners due to a board being >> proto-typed. >> The benefit is that in fact when the proto is built...it will reflect >> the production quality as well therefore negating re-engineering. >> >> This is what the Industry has evolved to out of customer demand in my >> view. And let's be frank, as the industry continues its writhing is >> it not true that customers are using ISO as a litmus test for >> building product? >> >> Customers deserve nothing less Steve, reagardless of the quantity. >> >> Charlie McMahon > > > > > -Steve Gregory---------------------------------------------------- > Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e > To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text > in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet > To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) > To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to > [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest > Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives > Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for > additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or > 847-509-9700 ext.5315 > ----------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Technet Mail List provided as a free service by IPC using LISTSERV 1.8e To unsubscribe, send a message to [log in to unmask] with following text in the BODY (NOT the subject field): SIGNOFF Technet To temporarily halt or (re-start) delivery of Technet send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet NOMAIL or (MAIL) To receive ONE mailing per day of all the posts: send e-mail to [log in to unmask]: SET Technet Digest Search the archives of previous posts at: http://listserv.ipc.org/archives Please visit IPC web site http://www.ipc.org/html/forum.htm for additional information, or contact Keach Sasamori at [log in to unmask] or 847-509-9700 ext.5315 -----------------------------------------------------